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Post by pim on Sept 20, 2016 13:09:24 GMT 10
Hubris - who are you to judge? I am not judging. It is my firm opinion that the Bible and its followers live in the dark ages and are unable to embrace scientific discoveries as it contradicts with their brainwashed views. I wouldn't say their views are ipso fact "brainwashed". If you mean, and I think you do, that some people chant biblical slogans (Matt springs to mind here) in the way that the sheep in Animal Farm would chant "four legs good, two legs b-a-a-a-d" then you can't possibly generalise that to include all who draw their faith, their spiritual nourishment and their worship from the Bible and apply it to the way they lead their lives. Desmond Tutu? Martin Luther King Jr? Dietrich Bonhoeffer? Sophie Scholl? These were Christians whose Bible-inspired and Bible-motivated responses to the evil around them were so powerful that you don't have to be a Christian to acknowledge and value their importance. Three of them, Bonhoeffer,King and Scholl paid for it with their lives. How many Sophie Scholl Gymnasien or Sophie Scholl Strassen will you find throughout Germany? Why is her grave a shrine visited by pilgrims outside the Munich prison where she was guillotined by the Nazis? Her brother Hans and a colleague Christoph Probst were guillotined along with her. Why are they not as well known? I'll tell you why. It's because of the courageous and devastating Christian critique she gave at her show trial of the rottenness and evil of the Nazi state that had led her to her non-violent acts of resistance to the Nazis. Brainwashed? I don't think so. King ... brainwashed? Bonhoeffer ... brainwashed? They followed the bible, not mindlessly, not in a way that could be called "brainwashed". But they did a lot more with the bible than "follow" it. They made it into something magnificent and noble. They aren't "saints" because that's a Catholic thing. They were all Protestants. Or "evangelisch" as the Germans call it. But they would merit sainthood a lot more than many of the dodgy candidates for sainthood canonised by the popes down through the centuries. Don't get me started on that one! I wouldn't call Occam or Fat "brainwashed" and it's insulting that you should imply that they are. As the redheaded lady said to Sam Dastyari ... "I didn’t know that about you!!"
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Post by pim on Sept 20, 2016 13:37:40 GMT 10
I reckon "brainwashed" is a fair description. Not the "totalitarian" sense of torture / drugs / sleep deprivation ... But in this sense: ... "any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, especially one based on repetition or confusion." So you'd argue that Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King Jr, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Sophie Scholl were all "brainwashed"!! That was Slarti's choice of word. Regarding the meaning of "brainwashed" I don't need to have the difference between metaphorical and literal explained to me. I'll go with metaphorical. It doesn't alter the point. I guess there's nothing more to say except that if Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King Jr, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Sophie Scholl were "brainwashed" metaphorically or literally then where are the showers that they used?
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Post by pim on Sept 20, 2016 14:15:44 GMT 10
Well there you go. I wonder if Slarti thinks the same as you since I was originally responding to him. And please, don't answer for him or put words in his mouth - metaphorically speaking.
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Post by slartibartfast on Sept 20, 2016 15:59:42 GMT 10
The preachers are the worst, they are supposed to be educated.
The problem is that they are educated with a fictional book instead of facts.
Yes, they are brainwashed and they are guilty of brainwashing others.
There is no doubt that the people you mention are all good people with good intentions, but they are all guilty of perpetuating the greatest lie ever told.
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Post by pim on Sept 20, 2016 16:23:15 GMT 10
Do the "brainwashed" include Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King Jr, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Sophie Scholl? And they’re just some 20th century examples.
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Post by KTJ on Sept 20, 2016 16:46:40 GMT 10
How about those scumbag religious con-artists Brian Tamaki and Brian Houston?
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Post by pim on Sept 20, 2016 16:55:34 GMT 10
In comes the apologist for terrorism with a diversion. Are you really comparing Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King Jr, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Sophie Scholl to those two? Crawl back into your Hole of Irrelevance. The grownups are talking.
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Post by KTJ on Sept 20, 2016 17:08:50 GMT 10
They all put Reverend in front of their names.
And they all preach bullshit from a bullshit book.
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Post by slartibartfast on Sept 20, 2016 17:37:52 GMT 10
Do the "brainwashed" include Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King Jr, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Sophie Scholl? And they’re just some 20th century examples. Refer my answer: The preachers are the worst, they are supposed to be educated. The problem is that they are educated with a fictional book instead of facts. Yes, they are brainwashed and they are guilty of brainwashing others. There is no doubt that the people you mention are all good people with good intentions, but they are all guilty of perpetuating the greatest lie ever told.
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Post by pim on Sept 20, 2016 22:53:28 GMT 10
Wow, breathtaking ...
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Post by slartibartfast on Sept 20, 2016 23:43:53 GMT 10
The truth is often breathtaking, look at the beauty of my wife for example.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2016 13:31:20 GMT 10
I don't even know why I'm looking in this thread. I don't like organised religion but I do have beliefs. I was going to comment on the afterlife. I believe that when you've seen many many people die as I have in the hospice you do gain some insights into how imminent death affects people and their acceptance of an afterlife.
But I don't have time ... so I will just say this: all of you have done nothing but denounce Christians of being "brainwashed." It's quite typical of the lefturd. How about Jews for instance? Or Hindus? What about Buddhists or Sikhs?
But even more to the point - how about muslims? If anyone on this earth is brainwashed, if anyone is indoctrinated and filled with psychological propaganda, it's muslims.
And until the lefturds of this board accept and acknowledge that, there really is no point in even joining the discussion.
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Post by slartibartfast on Sept 21, 2016 17:06:46 GMT 10
I don't even know why I'm looking in this thread. I don't like organised religion but I do have beliefs. I was going to comment on the afterlife. I believe that when you've seen many many people die as I have in the hospice you do gain some insights into how imminent death affects people and their acceptance of an afterlife. But I don't have time ... so I will just say this: all of you have done nothing but denounce Christians of being "brainwashed." It's quite typical of the lefturd. How about Jews for instance? Or Hindus? What about Buddhists or Sikhs? But even more to the point - how about muslims? If anyone on this earth is brainwashed, if anyone is indoctrinated and filled with psychological propaganda, it's muslims. And until the lefturds of this board accept and acknowledge that, there really is no point in even joining the discussion. If you'd actually paid attention, then you would know that I do not believe there is ANY God. The only reason Christians get "denounced" is because there are no people from any other religions on this board. They are more than welcome to join in, so they can get "denounced" too. And what does being an Atheist have to do with being your favourite word in 'Lefturd' ( although we all know who the real turd with a bad smell on this board is - hint - she gets names wrong!)
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Post by pim on Sept 21, 2016 18:53:18 GMT 10
I have a real problem with "denouncing" anyone solely on the grounds that they profess religious beliefs. You say that any religion is "welcome" because it gives you the opportunity to “denounce" them. That’s not welcoming,that's acting out of malice. Is that your motivation on the Religion Board? To bear malice towards religious believers?
As for dismissing the likes of Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King Jr, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Sophie Scholl as "brainwashed" and in the same breath condemning them by accusing them of "brainwashing" others, I find that so monstrous a thing to say that it is quite literally breathtakingly appalling. It's up there, or rather down there, with the most egregious statements that emanate from the likes of Pauline Hanson, Malcolm Roberts, Andrew Bolt or George Christensen. You three are entitled to your view on "brainwashed" but only in the same way that a member of the Flat Earth Society is entitled to argue that the Round Earth Theory is a conspiracy involving NASA and the UN, that there is no "empirical evidence" to "prove" the world is anything but flat, and that anything that purports to be "proof" is "corrupted data" - corrupted by NASA. While acknowledging the right of Flat Earthers to argue that way, they don't necessarily have the right to be taken seriously. I don't see why I should spend time arguing with these people. Anymore than I should treat your "brainwashed" argument about Tutu, King, Bonhoeffer and Scholl with anything other than "ignore".
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Post by slartibartfast on Sept 21, 2016 19:09:23 GMT 10
"Denouncing" was Stellar's choice of word, hence the parenthesis.
And I stated that the names mentioned had good intentions and were good people, but anyone continuing on the greatest lie ever told does not deserve my respect for that part of their lives.
And being taught at a young age that there is a God is indeed brainwashing!
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Post by KTJ on Sept 21, 2016 19:10:09 GMT 10
I don't even know why I'm looking in this thread. I don't like organised religion but I do have beliefs. I was going to comment on the afterlife. I believe that when you've seen many many people die as I have in the hospice you do gain some insights into how imminent death affects people and their acceptance of an afterlife. But I don't have time ... so I will just say this: all of you have done nothing but denounce Christians of being "brainwashed." It's quite typical of the lefturd. How about Jews for instance? Or Hindus? What about Buddhists or Sikhs? But even more to the point - how about muslims? If anyone on this earth is brainwashed, if anyone is indoctrinated and filled with psychological propaganda, it's muslims. And until the lefturds of this board accept and acknowledge that, there really is no point in even joining the discussion. For fuck's sake.... ....there has NEVER been any proof that any god exists except in the minds of delusional huamn beings. And that includes not only “god” (if you wish to call your delusion by that name), but also buddah, allah, yahweh, or whatever else you wish to call your delusion.
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Post by slartibartfast on Sept 21, 2016 19:14:22 GMT 10
To quote Richard Dawkins:
If children are taught they don't need to defend their beliefs with evidence, that paves the way for extremism¦ the biggest damage religion does is indoctrinating and brainwashing children.
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Post by pim on Sept 21, 2016 20:57:37 GMT 10
But I bet they do a great job of buttering parsnips
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Post by Occam's Spork on Sept 25, 2016 10:08:51 GMT 10
'Logic and reason' isn't believing you can blot out the sun by writing 'darkness' on the walls of your cell. Hmmmm, why does that quote sound like it should belong in the Bible? Is it because its followers are used to being kept in the dark and blindly believing the uninformed twaddle written by men long ago? Time to escape the dark ages, Sporky. Actually, I was paraphrasing C.S. Lewis. 'Logic and reason' isn't believing you can blot out the sun by writing 'darkness' on the walls of your cell. Hmmmm, why does that quote sound like it should belong in the Bible? Is it because its followers are used to being kept in the dark and blindly believing the uninformed twaddle written by men long ago? Time to escape the dark ages, Sporky.
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Post by KTJ on Sept 25, 2016 10:51:01 GMT 10
Quite appropriate to mention C.S. Lewis ... a specialist in works of fantasy. He had a history of “magic mushroom” use too!
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Post by pim on Sept 25, 2016 11:58:32 GMT 10
So what! Where does the hubris of the Three Trolls end? You're dismissing C.S. Lewis now? www.bethinking.org/apologetics/the-relevance-of-cs-lewisDoes a writer of fantasy literature automatically rule himself out of being taken seriously as a commentator on the cosmic aspects of the human condition through his writings? Where does that place Tolkien? Or Coleridge? Is The Ancient Mariner just a spooky sailor's ramblings? As for magic mushrooms apparently Coleridge was as high as a kite on opium when he wrote The Ancient Mariner. Does that automatically invalidate it as an important work of literature? I think you three are just trolling again. Doesn't matter what Occam or I post, just trash it and if you can make it personal so much the better. As I said, you three come to this board with a destructive agenda. You regard it as your toilet. You come here to shit.
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Post by pim on Sept 25, 2016 12:09:55 GMT 10
So the argument is about the validity of fantasy.
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Post by pim on Sept 25, 2016 12:37:37 GMT 10
So your problem is with biblical literalism. To read and appreciate the bible as a work of fantasy or as allegory - such as the works of C.S. Lewis, Tolkien or Coleridge ... or William Blake or John Milton (giants in English literature) - that's OK?
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Post by pim on Sept 25, 2016 12:55:02 GMT 10
The bible purports to be real?? Men have one rib fewer than women because Adam had to donate one so that God could create Eve? Donkeys can be made to talk and shepherds' crooks (or whatever it was that Moses had) can be transformed into snakes? That's all supposed to be literally true? Or were you told as a kid that it was all true, found out as you grew older that it couldn't be literally true and and it left you shocked and traumatised? I wonder if some kids can't deal with the revelation that there's no Tooth Fairy? Personally I'm still shocked about Santa Claus!
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Post by pim on Sept 25, 2016 12:59:22 GMT 10
I just had a cup of tea. No sugar but a splash of milk. Does that count?
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