|
|
Post by slartibartfast on Jun 14, 2016 14:41:54 GMT 10
Why are people sending prayers to victims of shootings, nature events etc?
Don't they realise that if there really is a God, he/she could have prevented whatever the tragedy is but chose not to.
|
|
|
|
Post by KTJ on Jun 14, 2016 15:08:47 GMT 10
The concept of praying to an imaginary god always amuses me.
In reality, the practitioners are praying to thin air.
Naturally, when thin air ignores them, they then claim that to be the will of their imaginary god.
Hilarious stuff, eh?
|
|
|
|
Post by sonex on Jun 14, 2016 17:31:15 GMT 10
Why are people sending prayers to victims of shootings, nature events etc? Don't they realise that if there really is a God, he/she could have prevented whatever the tragedy is but chose not to. Most people believe that we have free will and are responsible for some tragedies, earthquakes, storms, etc, are an effect of nature. Although I have no understanding of why some children are born to a life of misery, that I can blame on God. |
|
|
|
Post by slartibartfast on Jun 14, 2016 18:03:01 GMT 10
Sonex, the point is that if a God actually exists, he/she is a cruel sadist.
Obviously no God actually exists.
|
|
|
|
Post by pim on Jun 15, 2016 6:38:31 GMT 10
Do you ever get the feeling that you're kinda labouring the point about your "atheism" thing? Who have you managed to convince? Has anyone's mind been changed? Has anyone come back at a thoughtful reflection you might have posted with "hmm, you might have a point there. You've given me food for thought!" Seriously, do you anticipate that by posting in this vein you might actually cause a believer to question his/her religious faith? Maybe look at it in a different way? Do I think believers, and also doubters, can learn from atheists? Certainly! I have! But by the same token do you think atheists can learn from believers? Philip Adams thinks they can and he is probably Australia's most public atheist - in the sense that as a public commentator both in print and in the electronic media he wears his atheism on his sleeve. Christopher Hitchens thought that atheists could learn from believers and he proclaimed his atheism from his deathbed. The difference is that firstly they don't/didn't labour the point about their atheism and secondly they treat(ed) believers with respect. I think the board understands that you've made your point, slarti: you're an atheist, you reject religious belief and your cosmic view is distinctly secular and science-based. And that’s a perfectly valid view of the universe to embrace and live by. One that's worthy of respect. That’s not the issue as far as I'm concerned. I just wonder what you want from the Religion Board. Year follows year and it's the same ground that gets covered. Why bother! What do you want? Do you want the Religion Board to be closed down? It might be a good idea because who else posts on it?
|
|
|
|
Post by slartibartfast on Jun 15, 2016 8:14:28 GMT 10
Perhaps you can explain why the "Christians" praying for the Orlando victims are the same people who voted against gun control measures that could have prevented these murders and who are quite often homophobic as well?
The hypocrisy of theses I called Christians is amazing.
|
|
|
|
Post by slartibartfast on Jun 15, 2016 8:18:23 GMT 10
From Facebook:
F..k. Your thoughts. And Prayers. We don't need them. I don't want them.
You can't elevate people like Kim Davis, Ted Cruz, Huckabee and Trump and then as a country turn around and pretend that it's Islam that caused this.
We have been beaten to death with fists and boots and bottles and bats and lead pipes. We have been shot and stabbed and mutilated. We have been raped to death and we have been raped as punishment. We have been trapped and burned alive, families too ashamed to claim our corpses, churches refusing us burial. We have been strangled and stuffed under motel mattresses. We have been hung from barbed wire fences and left, alone, to die slowly.
America you have done all of this to us while calling *us* the predators, accusing *us* of perversion. You have stripped us of honor and titles even after we fought and died for you. You have called our bodies and our families unnatural and legislated against their safety. America, your politicians have fractured our bones under the heels of their shoes and their footprints have tracked our blood all the way to the airport bathrooms and clandestine hotel rooms where they seek pleasurable release from us.
How dare you, America, use our suffering and our corpses as a shield to attack 1.6 billion people. How dare you pretend that suddenly, just today, you care for our safety while you do nothing about the reckless greed of gun manufacturers, do nothing about the people in power who mock us and encourage fear of us.
How dare you, America, try to co-opt the fear that I live with every day of my life - every threat, every attack, every slur that has been screamed at me, every bit of rage hurled at me by men who wanted my number in a gay bar or men who cornered me to demand to know how my girlfriends taste, every bit of shame from the pulpit on Sundays, every time I had to hear as dobson said my queerness should be beaten out of me, every time I gripped my son's hand a little tighter to walk past the protesters outside of Pride. How dare you try to take this fear that *you* have instilled in me and redirect it towards YOUR war.
America, you have been at war with me since before I was even born. I am not your cannon fodder. You are not actually angry on my behalf and you do not get to twist my anguish to fuel yet more hatred and yet more death.
So take your thoughts and your prayers and turn them inward. They won't help me, but maybe they'll help you realize that we've been dying all this time and you never cared before.
|
|
|
|
Post by pim on Jun 15, 2016 8:43:33 GMT 10
Those FB points are powerful and valid, slarti, but they’re not what you said in your OP
|
|
|
|
Post by sonex on Jun 15, 2016 9:20:25 GMT 10
Sonex, the point is that if a God actually exists, he/she is a cruel sadist. Obviously no God actually exists. Well no not really, because God didn't cause the massacre in the USA, he doesn't wander the world creating misery and cruelty to thousands of people, these things are all done by human beings. If we believe that we have free will, then all the cruelties metered out to other men, women and children are the responsibilities of us humans. We cannot blame God. You can blame God for not interfering and stopping the bad people, but once again........free will. I believe that people in the throes of great sadness who pray receive a degree of comfort. Praying does no harm and will often give comfort to people who need it. |
|
|
|
Post by sonex on Jun 15, 2016 10:35:58 GMT 10
Well we could believe that a God created the earth, an earth which supplies humans with everything they need for a wonderful life.
Food, water, flowers, vegetables, etc. Having created this and stocked it with humans, his work was done, so he pressed the evolution button then went on his way to do other stuff. Maybe he has a look every now and again at what we humans have done with our lives and planet, shakes his head and moves on again.
There is no doubt that praying to a God does give comfort to people. It should be harmless, but with the mad people who are using him as a reason to murder, rape and torture women, men and children it is not harmless, so it is up to the good people to stop the mad ones.
Praying to God is a last resort for many people whose loved ones are dying in hospital. Once they have prayed they feel they have done everything possible to save the child, husband, wife, who are beyond human help. We can't expect a God to mend all the cruel and evil things that happen, they are within our power, it is our responsibility. Good humans against bad humans.
|
|
|
|
Post by sonex on Jun 15, 2016 14:19:00 GMT 10
"Pity, I'll never know the truth about there being a God or not.  " Well you might do when you are dead. I think I am part Atheist and part Deist too. Actually I suppose the human race was fairly easy to design, we all are basically the same physically, but the animals! and the insects and all the different weird and wonderful things in the sea, did some God have fun designing all of those. Why I wonder are there 350,000 different types of beetles, that seems a little excessive. |
|
|
|
Post by sonex on Jun 15, 2016 14:41:02 GMT 10
Well there might be a reward for winning the snake and ladders game, maybe a set of fairy wings. I'd rather play chess though.
Or when you are dead one of the heaven officials may remove your memory chip, and put another blank one in and pop you into some woman's tummy so you can be reborn. I do like to think of all these possibilities.
|
|
|
|
Post by KTJ on Jun 15, 2016 14:43:24 GMT 10
Imagine being stuck in a heaven with a DICTATOR who created nasty diseases and allowed brutal human despots to kill and generally create misery amongst human beings, and having to bow down and worship that DICTATOR for billions and billions and billions and billions and billions of millenia, for ever and ever and ever, amen.
I'd likewise rather devolve to oblivion than be forced to suck up for ever and ever.
Fortunately, its all a load of unproven bullshit!
|
|
|
|
Post by KTJ on Jun 15, 2016 16:19:53 GMT 10
Might explain the need to create creatures in his own image to have someone to talk to ...  Yeah, but he/she/it would have to exist for that to happen. And there is NO, ZERO, ZILCH proof that such a thing as a god has ever existed....except in the imaginations of delusional human beings. |
|
|
|
Post by sonex on Jun 15, 2016 17:39:17 GMT 10
Albert Einstein said, "Imagination ... is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world"
|
|
|
|
Post by pim on Jun 15, 2016 17:44:53 GMT 10
Might explain the need to create creatures in his own image to have someone to talk to ... Yeah, but he/she/it would have to exist for that to happen. And there is NO, ZERO, ZILCH proof that such a thing as a god has ever existed....except in the imaginations of delusional human beings. Stuck record ...  |
|
|
|
Post by pim on Jun 15, 2016 18:24:09 GMT 10
Albert Einstein said, "Imagination ... is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world" Yes and Einstein was no atheist. To be clear: to state that Einstein was no atheist does NOT mean that he therefore subscribed to the belief systems of this or that religion. His family background was, of course, Jewish which is why he ended up in the US during the Hitler period in Europe. His non-religious and secular "Jewishness" arose out of the kind of upbringing he'd received from his parents. As far as the Christian notions of a personal God were concerned, he rejected the concept. He’s not alone there. I have a lot of trouble with the idea of a personal God. But rejecting the idea of a personal God doesn't ipso facto make you an atheist. And Einstein himself said he was no atheist. If you read what Einstein says about the glory and wonder of the universe you're struck by how lyrically he expresses himself. This is a scientist who never loses his sense of awe and wonder while at the same time never allowing "awe and wonder" to overwhelm scientific rigour and detachment. It's science with poetry which I think is the best and most exciting science. It's this poetry that religion captures best but it's at its best when it's at the service of a brilliant pantheistic scientist like Einstein. There's a word for it: "numinous". It refers to the sense of awe that you feel when you see something utterly grand. I've had it when driving to Adelaide across the Hay Plains. Once I did it at night (risky and I wouldn't advise it what with all the large wildlife just itching to bump into your car. Once was enough for me) and the sight of the Milky Way filling the Australian outback sky was almost a religious experience. Ever read Clancy of the Overflow: "And he sees the vision splendid of the sunlit plains extended / And at night the wondrous glory of the everlasting stars". That sorta thing! That's "numinous" for those with a skerrick of poetry in them. Some atheists have a sense of the numinous. Christopher Hitchens understood it. Charles Darwin understood it. Einstein understood it and it led him to a type of pantheism. It’s what's missing in KTJs stuck record trolling and in Yorick and slarti's tendentious interventions on this board. Since those three as well as myself are the only ones left who post on the Religion Board I'm left wondering if it isn't time for it to be shut down. |
|
|
|
Post by sonex on Jun 15, 2016 18:39:35 GMT 10
Pim, I think you are somewhat harsh to Yorick, I quite enjoyed my little chat with him, he conceded a point I made about the comfort of praying, and we agreed on the tediousness of spending aeons playing snakes and ladders.
|
|
|
|
Post by pim on Jun 15, 2016 18:58:45 GMT 10
Pim, I think you are somewhat harsh to Yorick, I quite enjoyed my little chat with him, he conceded a point I made about the comfort of praying, and we agreed on the tediousness of spending aeons playing snakes and ladders. OK sonex fair enough. Alas poor Yorick I want to make clear That disputing with you does not make it a sneer. To be "atheist" is fine. "Jolly good!" I say! But where is the poetry? The numinous? So grey! |
|
|
|
Post by pim on Jun 15, 2016 19:15:29 GMT 10
Eh??  |
|
|
|
Post by Occam's Spork on Jun 19, 2016 1:46:33 GMT 10
Slarti,
I know your fanatical hatred of religion, and yours truely, is going to compel you with a negative knee-jerk reaction, but try to resist, and consider the following:
God can respect free will choices, even if He may not agree with them.
Would you enjoy being thwarted every time someone in authority disagreed with your actions? Your past history indicates not.
(Now, stay with me and resist the urge to go off topic:)
You've made posts that I've disagreed with. I don't need to convince you that I've had power the power to intervene; and allowing them isn't evidence that I condone them. Neither is choosing not to reveal myself or my authority evidence for my absence. Nor is it indicative of apathy or indifference.
In the same way, your assumptions about God could be, a priori, fundamentally flawed.
|
|
|
|
Post by Occam's Spork on Jun 19, 2016 11:03:59 GMT 10
Wow.
You completely missed the point didn't you?
I was saying, I could, it is well within my power; but I don't.
Next time, properly understand what is being stated, before reacting again with misguided outrage.
|
|
|
|
Post by Occam's Spork on Jun 19, 2016 11:23:38 GMT 10
Uh no. Whether you are thankful or not doesn't enter into it.
My words were directed to Slartibartfast's question.
I provided an example of how the inaction of authority figure isn't indicative of apathy, indifference, impotance, or absence. I only used my position as a moderator to paint the picture. This discussion isnt about moderators, or your opinions of me. Get over yourself.
It was your decision to forge my words into a weapon in a flawed attempt to villianize me.
Insults are not arguments, and if you are misusing the board to cyberbullly I am completely justified; when it comes time to delete.
Sorry, but I'm not.
|
|
|
|
Post by sonex on Jun 19, 2016 11:31:04 GMT 10
Occams Sport, you said........ "You've made posts that I've disagreed with. I don't need to convince you that I've had power the power to intervene; and allowing them isn't evidence that I condone them. Neither is choosing not to reveal myself or my authority evidence for my absence. Nor is it indicative of apathy or indifference." Read more: newstalkback1.proboards.com/thread/5390/prayers-why#ixzz4Bz6drPIPIt really is quite simple, if you disagree with a post then all you need to do is to say "I disagree with you" |
|
|
|
Post by Occam's Spork on Jun 19, 2016 11:35:03 GMT 10
It really is quite simple, if you disagree with a post then all you need to do is to say "I disagree with you" Noted. But that wasn't what this was about. Disclaimer: Insults aren't arguments, and I won't tolerate cyberbullying. Keep it about the facts,not about the person. |
|
"
