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Post by Occam's Spork on Jun 19, 2016 11:39:03 GMT 10
The statement above : "the inaction of authority figure isn't indicative of apathy, indifference, impotence, or absence." is a perfectly valid argument, but to bring up the old chestnut about "delete-a-thons" worries me. If I have got the wrong impression, then I am happy to move on with any future discussion. Alarm bells can be switched off in that case. Feel free to switch off the alarms, in that case. My words were poorly chosen, but my point regarding God still stands.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Jun 19, 2016 11:47:40 GMT 10
You and I would disagree about motives behind the deletion history, but I will accept that it is a sensitive subject; and a better analogy should have been used. The point about God however, still stands.
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Post by KTJ on Jun 19, 2016 12:49:48 GMT 10
Yep....that Canadian religious idiot DOES have a history of deleting stuff he doesn't like, to win arguments.
I have witnessed it many times.
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Post by pim on Jun 19, 2016 14:18:37 GMT 10
Yep....that Canadian religious idiot ... Talking about poorly chosen words ...
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Post by KTJ on Jun 19, 2016 15:20:59 GMT 10
Yep....that Canadian religious idiot ... Talking about poorly chosen words ... Okay, I'll change it a wee bit.... Yep....that religious Canadian idiot DOES have a history of deleting stuff he doesn't like, to win arguments. I have witnessed it many times.
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Post by pim on Jun 19, 2016 15:35:31 GMT 10
So, back to Occam's argument ... What Occam's is really expressing is more along the lines of a deist belief, not a theist belief. i.e. A creator god that sets things going then buggers off and leaves things to develop as they may. Not a personal god who takes an active interest and/or looks after individuals. and yet, and yet ... the Bible says that god is a personal god that takes an intimate interest in everything that happens to every individual. If true, then prayer would be meaningful, if not true, then prayer is totally useless. What you appear to be arguing is that prayer is only meaningful if it's to a personal god. This is a useful post, Yorick, not because I agree with it (I don't) but because at long last it gives us a substantial theological issue to sink our teeth into, and on the Religion Board no less! Fancy that! It depends on how one views prayer. If you see it as an individual making a wish list to the BFU (Big Fella Upstairs), a bit like a kid writing a letter addressed to the North Pole telling Santa what he'd like for Christmas, then I guess your point has some merit and I don't deny that some people pray that way. You hear stories of kids going missing and the news footage shows the anguished parents. Who's going to sneer at the mother for saying a quiet little prayer for the well being of her child? Maybe KTJ ... But is that the only type of prayer that there is? I'd say no. Bach would have seen his music as a prayer. I think what's misleading is that in popular parlance we "say" a prayer so that in the popular mind praying to God is really like telling Santa what you want for Christmas. But more correctly one "offers" prayers and that puts a different slant on things. Prayer isn't just making a petition to some anthropomorphic Being in the sky, prayer is reaching out to something numinous. To give a trivial example: remember the Rick O'Shay comic strip? Who was the gunslinger? Help me out here ... regularly you'd see the townfolk portrayed as going to church and looking at the gunslinger with disapproval as he rode past with absolutely zero interest in joining them. The next frame would see him riding into the wilderness and leaving the town behind him in the distance. Then the final frame would see him communing with nature in some spectacularly grand mountain setting a long way from other human company. You could interpet that as a comment on prayer and the desire for some sort of unity, however fleeting, with something a lot grander than yourself. I call that praying.
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Post by KTJ on Jun 19, 2016 15:47:48 GMT 10
So how many cases do you know of where it can be PROVEN that praying to an imaginary, unproven god has resulted in a desired outcome, with absolutely NO coincidence involved?
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Post by slartibartfast on Jun 19, 2016 16:26:36 GMT 10
A reasonable person can only answer "none" to that, KTJ.
Anyone who believes that prayer has any influence on anything is kidding themselves. And if they were honest, they would agree.
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Post by slartibartfast on Jun 19, 2016 16:31:56 GMT 10
And the whole point was that the arseholes who were praying for the victims of the Orlando victims were the same arseholes who voted in favour of allowing nutters on FBI watches the right to buy these horrible weapons of mass destruction.
And most of the same arseholes call themselves Christians and their bible hates the victims of the shooting because of their sexual preferences and wants you to kill them for being gay.
Nothing but hypocritical bastards the lot of them.
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Post by pim on Jun 19, 2016 19:23:58 GMT 10
What you appear to be arguing is that prayer is only meaningful if it's to a personal god. This is a useful post, Yorick, not because I agree with it (I don't) but because at long last it gives us a substantial theological issue to sink our teeth into, and on the Religion Board no less! Fancy that! It depends on how one views prayer. If you see it as an individual making a wish list to the BFU (Big Fella Upstairs), a bit like a kid writing a letter addressed to the North Pole telling Santa what he'd like for Christmas, then I guess your point has some merit and I don't deny that some people pray that way. You hear stories of kids going missing and the news footage shows the anguished parents. Who's going to sneer at the mother for saying a quiet little prayer for the well being of her child? Maybe KTJ ... But is that the only type of prayer that there is? I'd say no. Bach would have seen his music as a prayer. I think what's misleading is that in popular parlance we "say" a prayer so that in the popular mind praying to God is really like telling Santa what you want for Christmas. But more correctly one "offers" prayers and that puts a different slant on things. Prayer isn't just making a petition to some anthropomorphic Being in the sky, prayer is reaching out to something numinous. To give a trivial example: remember the Rick O'Shay comic strip? Who was the gunslinger? Help me out here ... regularly you'd see the townfolk portrayed as going to church and looking at the gunslinger with disapproval as he rode past with absolutely zero interest in joining them. The next frame would see him riding into the wilderness and leaving the town behind him in the distance. Then the final frame would see him communing with nature in some spectacularly grand mountain setting a long way from other human company. You could interpet that as a comment on prayer and the desire for some sort of unity, however fleeting, with something a lot grander than yourself. I call that praying. That sort of argument is to be expected from someone with a Catholic upbringing ... no disrespect meant, but that is what is apparent from your post. I was involved with the Baptist church, then the Christian Brethren .... prayer was very much about an intimate relationship with a personal god, not a "wish-list" as you put it. But very definitely a personal "conversation" with a personal god. So please, spare me your cringe-worthy, patronising, childish interpretation of what my understanding of prayer involves. You're very brittle, Yorick! I'm sorry if you find my post "cringe-worthy, patronising and childish". Such was not at all my intention. In fact rather than make the post about you in that personal way you accuse me of, I sought to make it more general and objective. You may well have a point though, when you detect my Catholic upbringing in my comments on prayer. I don't deny it and why should I. Coincidentally I was at yet another christening yesterday. It was in the very old church in the village in Dorset where my English relatives live. I'm due to visit next week and stay for a couple of days, I'm currently house sitting in South Devon, but my cousin suggested I make a day trip to come to the christening of the latest addition to the English branch of our clan: her daughter had a baby 3 weeks ago. I remembered the daughter as a little girl & was quite unprepared for the stunning young 30 something woman who greeted me and who was chuffed to have an Australian relative at her baby's christening. The christening ceremony was very much a Low Church Anglican affair and it was all very nice. It had a lot in common with my grandsons' christening of a few weeks ago in Canberra except for the Anglican minister's comments on prayer during the service. They basically echoed what you say about prayer. The minister described prayer as having a personal conversation with God. A type of tête à tête. And as I acknowledged in my earlier post that is indeed what it is for many people. I'm not trying to invalidate or belittle that particular model of prayer, Yorick. The parent who says a prayer because she's worried about the wellbeing of her child is definitely having a personal conversation with the BFU. When St Augustine was in his pre-devout bit-of-a-lad dissolute stage he is supposed to have uttered the famous Prayer of St Augustine: "Lord, make me virtuous, but not yet!" Definitely qualifies as a bit of a petition to the BFU! My point, though, Yorick, is that it's not the only model of prayer. There's a prayer in Purcell's Bell Anthem that expresses the hope that "the peace of God that passeth all understanding, may fill your hearts and minds through Jesus Christ our Lord". The music is quite sublime. No personal tête à tête with the BFU there! This is aimed straight at achieving some sort of fleeting unity with the Numinous. You get it with gregorian chants, with Palestrina and Josquin des Près. On my last trip to Antwerp I was taken to visit the utterly magnificent cathedral and there I was basking in this Gothic splendour when suddenly a pure musical note split the air. Not an instrument but the human voice. The choir was rehearsing and the choirmaster was taking them through their paces. I stood there totally spellbound. They were singing the Pange Lingua by Josquin des Près. I have it on CD but here it was, live and in context. It was a prayer, Yorick, and it was all about the Numinous, this feeling that you get when you experience something utterly grand and sublime. In fact you might call the Gothic cathedrals of Western Europe a type of prayer in stone. Protestants reject this notion of course and I intend no criticism. You sound like you come out of the Non Conformist tradition and I realise they'd utterly reject and condemn this architectural and musical appeal to the senses as papist idolatry. It was the over the top baroque splendour of the Vatican that so revolted Martin Luther as a young priest from Germany that he unleashed the Protestant Reformation. So there's nothing "cringe-worthy" about your view of prayer, Yorick. There's nothing to patronise or belittle. Yours is an honourable tradition for which people gave their lives. In fact you're right to bring up the Catholic upbringing thing. Let me flesh that out a little more: Protestantism bases itself upon the Word, and that informs its view of prayer - which is the view you expressed and that Anglican minister expressed yesterday at the christening. For Catholics however it has always been, and it continues to be, about the Sacrament which is why Catholicism aims more at an appeal to the senses. My point is simply that while for many people prayer is having a personal chinwag with the BFU, it's not the only model. Other religions aim for the Numinous. Next time you hear Buddhist chanting reflect on how these mantras are aimed at achieving a certain state of being. No personal conversations here, this is about the Numinous. They'd call it prayer, and so would I.
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Post by sonex on Jun 20, 2016 9:20:22 GMT 10
It seems to me that Yorick has had a traumatic journey through prayers and religion and has settled now for his own beliefs, not the teachings or beliefs of others, and that is what some of us do.
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Post by KTJ on Jun 20, 2016 10:23:26 GMT 10
Religion is a form of mental illness in human beings.
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