Are we in the end times?

[matt]

With all these natural disasters, do you feel this is a sign that Jesus will soon be returning?



.

[jody]

Matt I don't think we're quite there yet.

[matt]

We're getting close, and I cannot wait until Jesus finally returns. It will be an amazing sight, a triumph over evil.

[Deleted]

"I want to see the grasshoppers with hair like women and teeth like lions and metal breatplates and that can sting people for 5 months like scorpions"

I reckon someone was on some heavy shit when they wrote that one!
;-)

[Deleted]

Matt, I think every period in history can claim a point of being close to the 'end of times'

[jody]

There is little doubt it has all began Matt but like all things biblical, it takes a long time to see it all through. There is more yet to happen and I don't see those things happening for a while yet.

[Deleted]

The widespread adoption of the Mark of the Beast is not here yet and indeed the anti-Christ is not yet identifiable.

However I'd say the overall direction is a prophesized and events are heading in that direction.

[garfield]

Oct 30, 2012 15:56:37 GMT 10 @skippy said:

The widespread adoption of the Mark of the Beast is not here yet and indeed the anti-Christ is not yet identifiable.

However I'd say the overall direction is a prophesized and events are heading in that direction.

I can imagine some bible bashing crackpot saying that a thousand years ago too ... jesus isn't coming back and he aint even going to call ;D

[garfield]

You do realise that in a thousand years time people will be praying to the god of frodo for forgivness don't you?
And they'll make a movie with a linda blair type character thats been possesed by gollum ;D

[Deleted]

Oct 30, 2012 16:32:42 GMT 10 @buzzock said:

Yeah well - thats all well and good - just don't hurt other people because of your beliefs

Somewhat ironic an atheist stating that given they hold the record for bloodshed and genocide last century,and indeed for the last 20 centuries.

Officially atheist governments slaughtered more people in the 20th century than the worst excesses of the church over the previous 20.

So you atheists - 'just don't hurt other people because of your beliefs'

[Deleted]

To judge Atheism on the worst excesses of a few despots is hardly objective.

sound familiar?

[Deleted]

Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. -2 Peter 3:3-7

Can't help but wonder if some of the atheists here are fullfilling prophecy but haven't caught on to the fact.

[Deleted]

Oct 31, 2012 11:26:49 GMT 10 Gort said:

Mockers of Jesus have been going for 2,000 odd years.

That "end time" sure is a long time coming.

It was never said that mocking Jesus predicted the end times, you did claim to go to Bible College didn't you? Did you sleep through it?

There are specific events marking the end times, mocking alone does not predict the end times. Your comprehension of theology is very shaky. For a supposed 'enlightened one' you don't seem to understand the issues very well.

[Deleted]

Whoever wrote the Book of Revelation was obviously suffering from ergot poisoning, possibly after eating infected rye bread.

Today, you can get the same effect by ingesting lysergic acid diethylamide thanks to the late Dr Albert Hoffmann.

Gullible people such as Matty-boy and Altair have swallowed that Revelation shit hook, line & sinker!

[slartibartfast]

So God is a killer. I've been telling you that for ages!

[slartibartfast]

Oct 31, 2012 17:46:54 GMT 10 @buzzock said:

NO god isnt a killer - to be a killer you have to be real.

I know that, but the believers can't put two and two together.

If there really is a God, he is also an evil killer. He presides over storms, allows murderers to kill children, spreads disease etc.

What a guy!

[Deleted]

Oct 31, 2012 22:46:29 GMT 10 slartibartfast said:

Oct 31, 2012 17:46:54 GMT 10 @buzzock said:

NO god isnt a killer - to be a killer you have to be real.

I know that, but the believers can't put two and two together.

If there really is a God, he is also an evil killer. He presides over storms, allows murderers to kill children, spreads disease etc.

What a guy!

If there really is a God, he is also an evil killer. .

LOL , evil is a religious construct, there is no such thing as 'evil' in the atheist world only advantageous and disadvantageous events. I do love how the ignorant atheists use religious terms that they have no consistent logical basis for.

I also love seeing the ignorant atheists rabbit on judging God when it is obvious that these basement dwelling malcontents have really not even considered the issues eg God is a killer because -

He presides over storms,

The least thought on the issue would reveal that storms are part of the hydrological cycle which is necessary for life itself. No possiblity of storms leads to a greater evil of mass death through drought even if life was lucky enough to start without the cycle. This is basics, it amazes me how supposedly knowledgeable atheists miss this.


allows murderers to kill children

Again a declaration of ignorance. Even versed informed atheists do not use the moral evil argument because they are aware that there could be logical reasons why moral evil is permitted to exist. God did not make us robots he gave us free will. Inherent in free will is the choice to do wrong. I do wish some ignorant atheists would educate themselves to the issues.

spreads disease etc.

LOL again an oversimplistic rant based on actual ignorance. Disease spreads through eg bacteria and viruses - both of which are necessary for life itself. Without them there is no us.

I think you should try to educate yourself Slarti to the real issues rather than project simplistic ignorant quasi populist cut and paste rants.

[pim]

Nov 1, 2012 11:58:34 GMT 10 @skippy said:

evil is a religious construct, there is no such thing as 'evil' in the atheist world only advantageous and disadvantageous events. I do love how the ignorant atheists use religious terms that they have no consistent logical basis for.

Is that the best you can do? Is that really the dumbed down level that you work out your philosophical dribblings on? You know, Skippy, when you come out with nonsense like that it's no wonder Bender ended every post to you in the way that he did. We can go through the etymology of "evil" if you like but I kinda think it would make no difference to you. You'll just keep on chanting your mantra that "there's no morality without God" and completely disregard the wealth of philosophical argument that refutes it.

Now look, Skippy, I'm no paleo-atheist but I'm no paleo-credulist either. I'm not interested in being diverted into one of your philosophical swamps where we flounder around looking for where "morality" comes from. I'm not questioning the existence of morality and neither am I challenging the existence of the Abrahamic God - pace Buzz! Skippy wants you to intervene at this point about the genealogy of the biblical God. It's the distraction he desperately wants. But - and I'm anticipating you here because your form is well known - I won't be judged on the degree to which my understanding of "good" and "evil" is validated or invalidated by the degree to which I subscribe to your far right fundamentalist consensus about a vindictive sky god-who-smites.

Your central "argument" is that atheists can have no concept of good or evil because they're atheists! The only answer to that is that there have been very distinguished atheists who disagree with you. Bertrand Russell was one. David Attenborough is another. Albert Camus is yet another. Christopher Hitchens is yet another. Should I go on?

I'm not saying that because these people argue that atheism is a perfectly valid ethical and philosophical framework within which to develop a concept of good and evil that therefore they are right and everyone else is wrong. For every distinguished atheist I'm sure you could cite a distinguished theologian (and please, not that expat Yank guy you're always citing). I can be just as impressed by Erasmus as I am by Bertrand Russell. I can be as moved by John Calvin as I am intellectually nourished by Christopher Hitchens, and I find Karen Armstrong's Case for God compelling in a similar way to the credit I give to Albert Camus when in his Myth of Sisyphus he argues for meaning (and therefore morality) in the absurdity of a godless universe.

There are intellectual giants on both sides of the debate, Skippy, and I'm not going to try to argue that I know better than any of them.

When I say that today is Monday I'm using a word that has an ancient pagan reference since I refer to this day of the week bby its ancient pagan title as the day dedicated to the moon goddess. Tomorrow, Tuesday, derives its name from the ancient Germanic name of the war god Tiw ... and so on. Does that make us closet pagans? Is our Christianity but a veneer underneath which lurks a pagan depth? Was William Golding right in the comment his novel makes on the inherent savage in the most civilised human when he portrays what becomes of a group of upper class toffee-nosed British school boys marooned on an island in Lord of the Flies - which by the way is the English translation of "Beelzebbub"?

[Deleted]

Buzzo

There may be something in what you say re 'evil' but it is dependent on the definition of evil.
Evil has traditionally had a religious dimension to it's definition.
So we may be closer to agreement than we think if we broaden that definition.

However here is the question Buzzo - what is the difference between criminality and evil ? I can understand while not condoning a group of teenagers joyriding a stolen car ( criminality ) but I maintain that criminality is different from the evil of a priest sodomizing a young choirboy.

I never maintained at any times that atheists cannot be moral, of course you know the difference between right and wrong.

And yes you know what evil is but IMHO thats because God put that discernment in you.

best wishes, Skippy

[Deleted]

Stuff off Pim, you talk drivel sometimes. I'm not impressed by your fancy words, it's tripe. Now stuff off and stop interfering in a good discussion.

[pim]

Sorry for the typos. Had a cataract removed about a fortnight ago and can't get a new prescription for glasses until the third post op visit to the ophthamologist in a fortnight. She says I have to "struggle on" until then. So things get a little blurry and I touch type. I tend to pound the keys a little too heavily so at times a consonant or a vowel gets repeated and I don't see it. This is what happens when you "struggle on" without glasses!!

[pim]

Nov 1, 2012 13:08:47 GMT 10 @skippy said:

Stuff off Pim, you talk drivel sometimes. I'm not impressed by your fancy words, it's tripe. Now stuff off and stop interfering in a good discussion.

Oi! Skippy! Pull your head in! What "fancy words"?

And if you want a good discussion then spare us the dumbed down straw man bullshit about atheists needing religion as a reference for notions of good & evil. There's as much bullshit there as the "argument" that Christians are closet pagans because they name the days of the week after pagan gods.

[garfield]

[Deleted]

Over Skippy's head ? Really ? Bit like 'moral absolutes' and your inability to answer the question - lol - that was a classic forensic marathon run from you when confronted with that issue.

Oh the laugh that that was. I thought "Whoosh!" was an echo of you fleeing that debate.

[pim]

Buzz, Re-reading this I can see how you could be forgiven for thinking the whole paragraph is directed at you. It isn't. This part certainly is:

Nov 1, 2012 13:02:40 GMT 10 pim said:

pace Buzz! Skippy wants you to intervene at this point about the genealogy of the biblical God. It's the distraction he desperately wants.

But this part is directed to Skippy and I acknowledge I should have addressed him by name. Mea culpa!

But - and I'm anticipating you here because your form is well known - I won't be judged on the degree to which my understanding of "good" and "evil" is validated or invalidated by the degree to which I subscribe to your far right fundamentalist consensus about a vindictive sky god-who-smites.