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Post by caskur on May 17, 2022 18:05:20 GMT 10
Caskur, May I ask how do you reconcile your defense of abortion with your belief in God and what he hates? (Proverbs 6:17) "...Hands that shed innocent blood"? I'm genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts, because the two are incompatible to me. As best as humans can achieve they try to accomodate new expecting mothers but very, very terrible things go wrong with pregnancy and can really hurt mothers to be, emotionally. I actually know a woman whose many pregnancies failed and she also gave birth to a full term baby that didn't have a brain. That baby's grave is very near my own sons grave. She finally end up with a healthy daughter and healthy son after trying for over a decade. My Christian mother-in-law who is a midwife once said, every embryo IS a life but not every embryo is a potential for life. I got that message immediately. I think we must separate our emotional selves with our science and face reality. They know now not to force to keep alive premature babies for instance. People must learn bad things happen but that doesn't have be the end of it. Thank goodness thousands of years past King David we have people, mercy doctors, to assist women in need of terminations. Why did my only child die?.. why did my beautiful Rhodesian Ridgebacks die?... Why did my parents die? Why did my grandparents die? Why is my 20 yr old cat on her way out? Why did my net friends die? Why, why, why? And why are you so worried women strangers who you will never meet, visit mercy doctors (also who you will never meet) seeking pregnancy terminations...? you won't earn brownie points in Gods eyes on the issue of abortion unless its your abortion you are talking about. those people involved in what has been legal abortions for over 1/2 a century will face God... there is absolutey no reason for us to force them to obey laws we deem moral by hitting them over the head with a bible. The mercy doctors are preventing even worse misery... like leaving baby girls at the tip like the Chinese used to do... they probably still do it. 80% of fertilize eggs don't attach to the uterus ... that is just how it is. |
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Post by Occam's Spork on May 17, 2022 22:31:41 GMT 10
; There might be two "bodies" if you can call a fetus a body at 8 weeks when most abortions take place but it is completely dependent on the mother and its life is not viable if born at that stage. ...So what? Babies and toddlers, left to their own devices, would not be able to survive for very long, either. ...Would you allow someone to use that as justification for killing 3-year-olds? Oh right, 'cause it's a fetus. A fetus from a human. A fetus created specifically from two humans. A human fetus.😎 A baby isn't a female body part; it's another person. I'm not interested in the woman's esophagus, kidneys or circulatory system but rather in protecting the living human being inside of her. Abortion isn't birth control; It's murder. |
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Post by Occam's Spork on May 17, 2022 23:23:52 GMT 10
Caskur, May I ask how do you reconcile your defense of abortion with your belief in God and what he hates? (Proverbs 6:17) "...Hands that shed innocent blood"? I'm genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts, because the two are incompatible to me. As best as humans can achieve they try to accomodate new expecting mothers but very, very terrible things go wrong with pregnancy and can really hurt mothers to be, emotionally. I actually know a woman whose many pregnancies failed and she also gave birth to a full term baby that didn't have a brain. That baby's grave is very near my own sons grave. She finally end up with a healthy daughter and healthy son after trying for over a decade. My Christian mother-in-law who is a midwife once said, every embryo IS a life but not every embryo is a potential for life. I got that message immediately. I think we must separate our emotional selves with our science and face reality. They know now not to force to keep alive premature babies for instance. People must learn bad things happen but that doesn't have be the end of it. Thank goodness thousands of years past King David we have people, mercy doctors, to assist women in need of terminations. Why did my only child die?.. why did my beautiful Rhodesian Ridgebacks die?... Why did my parents die? Why did my grandparents die? Why is my 20 yr old cat on her way out? Why did my net friends die? Why, why, why? And why are you so worried women strangers who you will never meet, visit mercy doctors (also who you will never meet) seeking pregnancy terminations...? you won't earn brownie points in Gods eyes on the issue of abortion unless its your abortion you are talking about. those people involved in what has been legal abortions for over 1/2 a century will face God... there is absolutey no reason for us to force them to obey laws we deem moral by hitting them over the head with a bible. The mercy doctors are preventing even worse misery... like leaving baby girls at the tip like the Chinese used to do... they probably still do it. 80% of fertilize eggs don't attach to the uterus ... that is just how it is. I'm sorry Caskur, but I find your explanation woefully inadequate. To justify abortion on the grounds that bad things happen; is to justify homicide just because people happen to die anyway. I'm not saying you are a bad person-I believe that you mean well, I just find that really faulty reasoning. As for your question, I think God desires us to love everyone, even strangers, even the unborn. We have an obligation to do our best. Even if sometimes we are really bad at it, or don't know what our 'best' is. My job as a Christian is to add value to lives -All lives. I have an obligation to act on my convictions, and it's a sin to ignore it. (James 4:17) No judgement here. I just want to encourage you to pray and find out what God wants you to do. |
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Post by Occam's Spork on May 18, 2022 2:16:58 GMT 10
I agree with most of that, but... Clarification: Stelllar's objection was the world was overpopulated. My point was to show that it wasn't. People live on less than 2% of the earth's landmass. If everyone turned their 'current' lawns into gardens food scarcities would never be a problem. The remainder of the current land could be used for whatever. (Btw: I am not in favour of high rises or city life for reasons I will not discuss here, because it's wildly off topic.) We could also extend our properties beyond what we currently have. The real problem is: In our greed, humans waste an incredible amount of land and resources. we should use the deserts... they could be utilized. However farms that take out virgin land and there lives the crucial and I mean critically crucial biodiversity. There is no such thing as unoccupied land... all land already has its own critters....humans come along and undermine virgin areas destroying critical biodiversity then wonder why bees are suffering destrction from mites. when you make forests smaller... woodlands smaller you make them "animal sick" (wild animal overcrowding).... in other words the animals are prone to getting sick from parastes because the area is now more congestered with them. That spreads to us eventually. When humans over breed and build filthy congested cities they are prone to spreading sickness like covid was spread in highrise NYC. Human bodily waste and their their plastic pollution is a critical concern...a story for another time. As our Dick Smith said we could have a country with a comfotable well looked after population or we could become another seriously poor, overcrowded population with everyone suffering in poverty. I prefer for the next generation, have the beautiful planet we grew up in. Why would you persist in having that ruined with more unwanted people? I don't get it. And don't believe that 1-2% land occupied .... we have farms, mining and roads, power stations, etc taking up land our houses aren't on. We are definately fully occupied and that other shit you are reading is just religious propaganda. I know... I read it 40 years ago when we were only 3 billion not the 7.8 billion we've become. That isn't an argument for overpopulation. That is an argument against poor resource management. We could still thrive without all of the bullshit we construct. We don't want to. We can/should do better. |
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Post by Occam's Spork on May 18, 2022 5:23:31 GMT 10
It's pretty clear that they we're all a bunch of unhinged nutjobs to.😅 I'd rather be a conservative nutjob; than a leftist with no nuts and no job.😁 |
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Post by caskur on May 18, 2022 12:47:01 GMT 10
Since humans are born sinfull, there is no such thing as "innocent blood."
The point of my argument was that both babies die in utero accidentally and on purpose through abortion...there is no guarantee a pregnancy survives and over emotionalizing the condition of pregnancy isn't helpful.
There are cultures that kill the first baby and plant it under a sapling so that the mother says to the tree, "my baby the tree."
When a woman has a spontaneous abortion... is that Gods fault?
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Post by caskur on May 18, 2022 17:21:41 GMT 10
A baby isn't a female body part; it's another person. Abortion isn't birth control; It's murder. Actually, the embryo and foetus are parasites and the female is a host. Not many use abortion as birth control and according to laws debated half a century ago, abortion isn't murder. Why do you keep saying the same rhetoric here? The 3 people you're discussing it with have reasoned an embryo or foetus isn't a person yet. And that is the global consensus. You would be better to advocate men stop fertilising females... AIDS and other death causing STD are still an issue. Wear protection. |
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Post by caskur on May 18, 2022 18:13:08 GMT 10
Cities are very congested and our Premier is hell bent on turning barely liveable 2 million strong Perth into 5 million.
As soon as my MIL dies we're selling up and going to live in a quite country town... hopefully on the coast.
Perth is a rat race now. I think I would die in Sydney or Melbourne. I LOVED the first lockdown when the roads were abandoned. I thought it was the best time we had in 3 decades.
Even though I love McGowan a lot... he has some eastern states values I don't like. He wants to promote tourism and as far as I'm concerned tourism sucks and it's false economy.
People go to places to witness their natural wonders... if you flood the city 2.5 timesing the population, there goes your mature trees and exotic birds... why would people come to Perth when it's a sea of roof tops and roads, less green and has no exotic birds and is astronomically dear because shop keepers rents are so high, shop keepers have to sell 1,500 cups of coffee just to pay the rent.
5 million million more people!?!?!? I just about ball my eyes out at the thought.
In the lockdown, and I've mentioned this before, WA people toured our own state to the tune of spending 6 billion... that is 6 billion that was spent in the state instead of Bali and other places... now that covid was allowed to seed in WA last Christmas day, paradise was literally lost.
Our lives are ruined.
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Post by Occam's Spork on May 18, 2022 22:57:03 GMT 10
Since humans are born sinfull, there is no such thing as "innocent blood." The point of my argument was that both babies die in utero accidentally and on purpose through abortion...there is no guarantee a pregnancy survives and over emotionalizing the condition of pregnancy isn't helpful. There are cultures that kill the first baby and plant it under a sapling so that the mother says to the tree, "my baby the tree." When a woman has a spontaneous abortion... is that Gods fault? 1. Miscarriages are not abortions, any more than accidents are homicide. Abortions are fueled with intent to harm. They didn't 'lose' the baby, they killed the baby. 2.You are being purposely pharisaic on the definition of the word 'innocence'. We are talking about the spirit of the word, not the letter. Think about this logically: If it weren't possible to shed innocent blood, there would be no reason for God to hate it. 3. Infanticide was the tradition of many cultures. God did not look favourably on the child sacrifice rituals of Ba'al. Many cultures have their root in antediluvian Babylon. The wrath of God was upon them too. A point that you should consider. 4. Explain to me what you mean by 'spontaneous abortion.' Abortion is a procedure, and by definition can't be spontaneous, That is an oxymoron. |
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Post by caskur on May 18, 2022 23:04:53 GMT 10
Since humans are born sinfull, there is no such thing as "innocent blood." The point of my argument was that both babies die in utero accidentally and on purpose through abortion...there is no guarantee a pregnancy survives and over emotionalizing the condition of pregnancy isn't helpful. There are cultures that kill the first baby and plant it under a sapling so that the mother says to the tree, "my baby the tree." When a woman has a spontaneous abortion... is that Gods fault? 1. Miscarriages are not abortions. They are spontaneous abortions. That is the correct medical term. |
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Post by Occam's Spork on May 18, 2022 23:51:14 GMT 10
Actually, the embryo and foetus are parasites and the female is a host. There are a few things wrong with this view: a) Over 99 percent of all pregnancies are the result of sexual relations in which both partners have willingly participated. The embryo did not impose itself onto the host. b) In this scenario, mother and child are pitted against each other as enemies. The baby isn't an invading species. It was produced by the mother’s own body by the natural process of reproduction. A process it's host mother willingly participated in. Did you love your child less when they were three, than you did when they were twelve? Then why do you see them as a parasite when they were only at a different stage of development? c) The child’s presence during pregnancy is rarely more inconvenient than his presence after birth. ...So if nothing more than a parasite, why not kill it when it is most inconvenient? Infants? Toddlers? The state sometimes gets things wrong... Just ask the Holocaust survivors. It isn't rhetoric. NASA scientists use exactly the same criteria, to determine signs of life. That. Is rhetoric. Historically it's been possible for all of a majority to be wrong about the same thing. Ask Galileo. I agree. But you can't force people to be responsible any more than you can stop them from having abortions. |
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Post by Occam's Spork on May 19, 2022 0:34:45 GMT 10
When a woman has a spontaneous abortion... is that Gods fault? There is no fault in God. He takes all life, He can also restore it. We can't. If man takes life for Him, is that not playing God? |
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Post by Occam's Spork on May 19, 2022 0:36:58 GMT 10
1. Miscarriages are not abortions. They are spontaneous abortions. That is the correct medical term. Then it's a misnomer. To abort something means to stop it. We didn't 'stop' anything, it was merely stopped. |
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Post by caskur on May 19, 2022 13:28:13 GMT 10
They are spontaneous abortions. That is the correct medical term. Then it's a misnomer. To abort something means to stop it. We didn't 'stop' anything, it was merely stopped. it is the correct medical term for naturally losing embryos and foetus... Spontaneous Abortion. |
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Post by Occam's Spork on May 19, 2022 22:48:15 GMT 10
Then it's a misnomer. To abort something means to stop it. We didn't 'stop' anything, it was merely stopped. it is the correct medical term for naturally losing embryos and foetus... Spontaneous Abortion. That may well be, but it is still a misnomer. Like 'sunrise', when we know the sun doesn't actually rise. |
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Post by Occam's Spork on May 20, 2022 6:19:53 GMT 10
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Post by Occam's Spork on Jun 17, 2022 6:20:30 GMT 10
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