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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 20, 2021 7:55:01 GMT 10
Newsflash: Everyone dies; not everyone is murdered. There is a difference? The result is the same. There really is. Ask anyone who has lost a family member to murder.
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Post by Salem on Aug 21, 2021 7:46:53 GMT 10
A human life is BORN. There is nothing to 'murder'. That's not a scientific statement. Something is alive the moment it starts to grow. To halt its development, at any stage, is to kill it. Your definition is only one of convenience, not of fact. Cancer is alive and grows. Bacteria and amoeba is alive and grows. It doesn't make it a human being.
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Post by Salem on Aug 21, 2021 7:49:23 GMT 10
Abortion has been around since day one and is supported in the Bible. For as long as a woman is desperate not to be pregnant, she will do ANYTHING including sticking vacuum hoses up there, take herbs to kill the fetus (Biblical times), back alley abortions, or throwing herself down a flight of stairs, NOTHING AND NO ONE can force a woman to gestate against her will. The actual born human, the woman's rights are greater than the fetus. Each and every single time. That's what it comes down to. A woman right to not risk her health in pregnancy and her life in childbirth. The rights of the BORN come FIRST, each and every single time, every day, and in every way. 1. I disagree. One human life is equal to another. 2. And just because people do it, doesn't mean they ought to. 3. So they did it in ancient times as well... so what? The Ancient Greeks would abandon unwanted children on a mountainside to die. Will you be endorsing infanticide, as well? 1. A fetus is NOT a born actual human life. It is NOT equal to a born actual human being - the woman. This is base level common sense. 2. If a woman is that desperate for an abortion, then it's fairly obvious that she ought to. 3. So what? That says it all....
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 21, 2021 8:02:35 GMT 10
1. I disagree. One human life is equal to another. 2. And just because people do it, doesn't mean they ought to. 3. So they did it in ancient times as well... so what? The Ancient Greeks would abandon unwanted children on a mountainside to die. Will you be endorsing infanticide, as well? 1. A fetus is NOT a born actual human life. It is NOT equal to a born actual human being - the woman. This is base level common sense. 2. If a woman is that desperate for an abortion, then it's fairly obvious that she ought to. 3. So what? That says it all.... 1. Its human. Its alive. What are you not getting about this? 2. So are you suggesting Murder out of convenience is a good thing?
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 21, 2021 8:14:59 GMT 10
That's not a scientific statement. Something is alive the moment it starts to grow. To halt its development, at any stage, is to kill it. Your definition is only one of convenience, not of fact. Cancer is alive and grows. Bacteria and amoeba is alive and grows. It doesn't make it a human being. No. But that is a nonsense argument. None of those things have the genetic capacity to be human. From the moment when the sperm fertilizes the egg, the preborn child has his or her own unique genetic identity. Thus making them individuals, or persons. Ergo scientificically, they are persons at the moment of conception. Additionally... Historically, nothing good has come from denying people their personhood. The Holocaust, enslavement of African Americans, and the oppression of women, to name a few atrocities. We were found to be wrong about them too...
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Post by Salem on Aug 21, 2021 9:46:36 GMT 10
1. A fetus is NOT a born actual human life. It is NOT equal to a born actual human being - the woman. This is base level common sense. 2. If a woman is that desperate for an abortion, then it's fairly obvious that she ought to. 3. So what? That says it all.... 1. Its human. Its alive. What are you not getting about this? 2. So are you suggesting Murder out of convenience is a good thing? 1. It's not born. What are *you* not getting about this? 2. What does murder have to do with this topic? No one is advocating murder. Are you suggesting a woman wanting to do what is convenient for her is a 'bad' thing? That women having base level human rights is a bad thing?
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Post by Salem on Aug 21, 2021 9:53:08 GMT 10
Cancer is alive and grows. Bacteria and amoeba is alive and grows. It doesn't make it a human being. No. But that is a nonsense argument. None of those things have the genetic capacity to be human. From the moment when the sperm fertilizes the egg, the preborn child has his or her own unique genetic identity. Thus making them individuals, or persons. Ergo scientificically, they are persons at the moment of conception. Additionally... Historically, nothing good has come from denying people their personhood. The Holocaust, enslavement of African Americans, and the oppression of women, to name a few atrocities. We were found to be wrong about them too... No, your arguments are nonsense, as is your desperate plea to The Holocaust and African American slaves, ignoring the very fact that you are advocating for Gestational Slavery. There is a reason that Forced Pregnancy is considered by the UN and every other body as a Human Rights Violation. Whether they are a genetic person or not, is irrelevant. It doesn't exist. It is not a human being. Also, there is an argument to be made that a Blastocyst is a person from IMPLANTATION. Not from conception, as 80% of all fertilised eggs do not IMPLANT. Human life does NOT start at conception, even scientists and doctors disagree with you there. Most fertilized eggs don't even attach to the uterine wall. An estimated 60% to 85% of fertilized eggs fail to 'take' and leave the body during a period. This is not a miscarriage, this is well before that. So how, scientifically, can *life* begin at conception, when 60% at bare minimum, die straight away? THAT, is why scientists don't believe life begins at conception. Because up to 85% of conceptions don't stick to the uterine wall. 85%. That means only 15% of life begins at conception. That, is why pro-choicers have SCIENCE on their side. Even scientists don't agree that life begins at conception, partly because most fertilised eggs don't even implant, but because the fetus is not sentient until week 26/27, scientists say when the fetus has sentience and a brain stem and nervous system, which is not until the THIRD TRIMESTER. hplusbiopolitics.wordpress.com/2008/06/25/inconsistancy-in-the-life-begins-at-conception-argument
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Post by Salem on Aug 21, 2021 9:56:31 GMT 10
Bottom line is, you cannot force a woman to gestate and risk her health and her life against her will. If you do, you support SLAVERY. So own it. Whether it is born or not, all nonsense bullshit arguments.
The bottom line is a woman has basic civil human rights. And the right NOT to gestate and be forced into SLAVERY is the most fundamental right of all. HER rights will always outweigh the rights of a parasite or foreign matter in her body without her consent.
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Post by Salem on Aug 21, 2021 10:00:24 GMT 10
Yours is stubborn ideology over Christianity, stubborn ideology over compassion, stubborn ideology over basic human decency. Women are commodities to be forced into slavery in your mind. In your mind, women have no rights, no agency. A blastocyst, a parasite with no nerve receptors has more rights in your dogmatic blinkered thinking, than an *actual* human being. A woman will ALWAYS have more rights than a blastocyst. Every day, in every way, on every level. Any time any day. A woman's basic human right to FREEDOM, to LIBERTY, and to health, is paramount.
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Post by pim on Aug 21, 2021 11:49:55 GMT 10
Occam are you debating on the basis of the status of abortion such as it exists in North America? The issues are different here where abortion comes under the criminal law of the various State jurisdictions. It will vary from state to state but by and large abortion has been decriminalised in this country. Under Common Law, the foetus under current Australian law appears to have little protection as it is not a legal 'person' or 'human being' until it completely exits its mother by being born alive. You might agree or disagree on ethical or philosophical grounds. I expect you’d strongly disagree and that’s fine. So does the Catholic Church which takes a totally contrarian position on abortion, divorce and contraception and these three issues more than any other caused me to part company with Rome. I’ve been in recovery ever since. It’s the rehab that isn’t working all that well.
But here’s the thing: the law is what it is over here and the liberalisation of abortion law, and family law didn’t occur in a vacuum. As an aside I believe that there are all sorts of restrictions surrounding the inclusion of oral contraceptives on the taxpayer funded Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme. Salem help me out here! Rather than get lost in the weeds on detail it seems that on the issue of contraception it’s still a work in progress in this country. But abortion is legal. What you claim about a foetus is not supported in law in this country. So if you debate abortion with an Australian, she is going to come from a very different legal standpoint than the one you’re used to.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 21, 2021 14:09:36 GMT 10
Yours is stubborn ideology over Christianity, stubborn ideology over compassion, stubborn ideology over basic human decency. Women are commodities to be forced into slavery in your mind. In your mind, women have no rights, no agency. A blastocyst, a parasite with no nerve receptors has more rights in your dogmatic blinkered thinking, than an *actual* human being. A woman will ALWAYS have more rights than a blastocyst. Every day, in every way, on every level. Any time any day. A woman's basic human right to FREEDOM, to LIBERTY, and to health, is paramount. No... I would argue that a woman has a choice to keep her legs closed, or use contraceptives. A man has the choice to keep his dick in his pants or put a hat on little Jimmy. Both are choices, better yet they are responsible choices. My point is that abortion is not birth control.
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Post by caskur on Aug 21, 2021 23:16:20 GMT 10
Pregnancy puts women's lives in danger especially after a woman suffers chlamydia. It's certainly true, every life is not a potential for life.
I knew an aboriginal woman who died from an ectopic pregnancy as well.
I knew another woman had an egg start to develop into teeth and hair but wasn't human. I knew another girl who had a perfect little girl born without a brain. Her grave is near my son's grave
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Post by caskur on Aug 21, 2021 23:46:45 GMT 10
Yours is stubborn ideology over Christianity, stubborn ideology over compassion, stubborn ideology over basic human decency. Women are commodities to be forced into slavery in your mind. In your mind, women have no rights, no agency. A blastocyst, a parasite with no nerve receptors has more rights in your dogmatic blinkered thinking, than an *actual* human being. A woman will ALWAYS have more rights than a blastocyst. Every day, in every way, on every level. Any time any day. A woman's basic human right to FREEDOM, to LIBERTY, and to health, is paramount. No... I would argue that a woman has a choice to keep her legs closed, or use contraceptives. A man has the choice to keep his dick in his pants or put a hat on little Jimmy. Both are choices, better yet they are responsible choices. My point is that abortion is not birth control. Condoms have a 15% failure rate and women can fall pregnant on the pill if the woman gets stomach flu and expells the pill. The pill fails at a rate of 9%, they admit to. There are plenty of ways to have sex without penetration. Guys deliberately get females pregnant. No other excuse holds up.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 22, 2021 1:57:09 GMT 10
Condoms have a 15% failure rate and women can fall pregnant on the pill if the woman gets stomach flu and expells the pill. The pill fails at a rate of 9%, they admit to. If you don't use them, that failure rate increases to 100% There are plenty of ways to have sex without penetration. Absolutely! They should do that, instead of making a human and then killing it. Guys deliberately get females pregnant. No other excuse holds up. Yes, they do. And women are only capable of getting pregnant roughly 5 days a month. Ergo, you could also say there are women who use this knowledge to intentionally entrap men. There is no excuse for either.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 22, 2021 2:12:05 GMT 10
It's certainly true, every life is not a potential for life. No. Every life, by definition already has the potential for life. Otherwise, it would be unable to naturally develop further. Living things have the capacity to grow, that is one of the things that categorizes them as "living". A fetus is growing, ergo it is a living thing. Sorry for your loss. But that argument is like saying, "People die all of the time, so there is no point to life." -I don't agree with that. It was human. It contained human DNA. It was just not a developed human. But if you are going to say that something doesn't deserve life just because it isn't developed to standard. Then you should probably do away with people who are infirm and mentally feeble as well.
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Post by caskur on Aug 22, 2021 2:41:39 GMT 10
Ergo, you could also say there are women who use this knowledge to intentionally entrap men. There is no excuse for either. true, no excuse whatsoever but they are the ones who don't seek abortions either.
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Post by ponto on Aug 22, 2021 7:44:34 GMT 10
With alt truth puritanical evangelist their logic is ban abortions and then they will not happen.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 23, 2021 11:26:28 GMT 10
Ergo, you could also say there are women who use this knowledge to intentionally entrap men. There is no excuse for either. true, no excuse whatsoever but they are the ones who don't seek abortions either. Why must anyone seek abortions? That's my point.
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Post by caskur on Aug 23, 2021 19:35:52 GMT 10
OMG, not you again.
Do you and you new wife tag team here or something?
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Post by Occam's Spork on Sept 16, 2021 21:17:40 GMT 10
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Post by Occam's Spork on Sept 16, 2021 21:58:42 GMT 10
OMG, not you again. Do you and you new wife tag team here or something? What are you talking about?
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Post by ponto on Sept 17, 2021 6:46:10 GMT 10
Wooo hooo whoopie how good are backyard abortions...
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Post by Occam's Spork on Sept 17, 2021 8:07:11 GMT 10
Wooo hooo whoopie how good are backyard abortions... Not good. I'm not for baby killing of any kind. ...How about you?
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Post by ponto on Sept 17, 2021 10:06:00 GMT 10
Not my decision to make...your decision is backyard clinics for women...how good is that.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Sept 17, 2021 10:08:51 GMT 10
Not my decision to make...your decision is backyard clinics for women...how good is that. 'My' choice?... Like somehow they've succumbed to the male will? ... And just like that you become a chauvinist. That was quick.
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