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Jesus
Dec 28, 2012 19:05:07 GMT 10
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2012 19:05:07 GMT 10
Yes absolutely. If you have not heard of Jesus but act according to the goodness and conscience that God has placed in your heart you will be saved. Such an individual e.g. a tribesman in the remote PNG or Amazon jungle has not rejected Jesus as ergo they did not know of him. The problem in mainstream society is that people do know of Jesus/God and whilst in their heart they know he exists they find every excuse to reject him and are willfully ignorant. Their call, their consequence. So much for "original sin". You did sleep through Bible College didnt you Earl? Or was it just the Theology classes? For someone who proclaims to have gone to Bible College your theological knowledge is abysmal. What Bible College did you attend Earl or are you going into retreat mode and refusing to answer again?
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Jesus
Dec 28, 2012 19:24:04 GMT 10
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2012 19:24:04 GMT 10
I would respond Earl that if that is your interpretation of salvation and knowledge of the Bible then you are wrong.
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Jesus
Dec 28, 2012 19:28:42 GMT 10
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2012 19:28:42 GMT 10
For those who have heard of Christ, repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as personal Saviour. For those who have not heard of him, living according to their conscience that God has given them.
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Jesus
Dec 28, 2012 21:53:47 GMT 10
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2012 21:53:47 GMT 10
Earl Consider - www.letusreason.org/Apolo17.htmThere is what is called general revelation that comes from nature, God's creation. One can learn about God by observing the world around us. This is why there are so many different religions. Because many stop in nature and say it is nature that is God. But the bible teaches God is transcendent he is beyond nature as its creator. So they rebel against the evidential truths and they go no further in there pursuit. In Romans 2:12-15 it states, “For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts ultimately accusing or defending them. In the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.” Scripture explains how God has given each man a “natural law”; a general understanding of right and wrong. This is evident in the fact that all men are endowed with a conscience. Every society, culture and person develops some type of a moral code that they judge others and themselves by. The remains of the conscience are marred but not destroyed, it still operates in us. We can know even by instinct what are the standards of truth coming from God. The gentiles or unbeliever is able to know and keep some of the moral law because they are made in the image of God. If they do not sear their conscience it continues to be a moral umpire. Further in the article - What happens to be who never heard the gospel. Romans teaches that God will judge people on what they know and are capable of knowing. We can know right and wrong and know there is one true God. Job did, Jethro did and many others. All can instinctively know His moral code and know they have sinned, As Paul writes they are without excuse. Paul establishes the fact that from nature one can know that creation has a creator. He opposes the Atheist, who he mocks in 1 Cor.1 as the wise which God has made foolish in their wisdom. That, from the beginning of the world, there are sufficient proofs of the existence of God. Further, Paul says that man should realize the creator of the universe would be greater than the created objects that we find in the world (“birds, and four-footed animals, and crawling creatures”), but mankind chooses to worship them rather than God, so “man is without excuse.” Man has an innate desire to worship. In ancient Egypt they worshipped all kinds of creatures even insects and bugs like a scarab beetle. Imagine worshipping a cockroach. No matter what creature or portion of nature you worship the creator calls you foolish. But man goes further then this thinking he has wisdom he becomes a fool when he denies that there is a God.
Atheism is the ultimate corruption of mans nature. It is a disowning of God contrary to all reason. For it is not a denial of His existence as much as it is a replacement by one self-governing their own life being answerable to no one. Yet the very air we breathe and the food consumed, is by His generous donation. For even an atheist in his darkest hour will call out to God hoping He hears him, or will curse the one that he convinced himself does not exist. All men have a fear of God, this is not the fear that is the beginning of wisdom that would have one repent. It is the fear that he can judge so they convince themselves there is no punishment, excusing themselves for every guilty thing they have done to their fellow man. Romans 2:6: “God will render to each according to his deeds,” and to those self seeking and do not obey the truth.” As the Bible says Earl - Genesis 18: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? So provision is made for those who have not heard God's word and thus to answer Matt's original topic question : Yes in some circumstances non-Christians will go to heaven BUT that is via the proviso they have not heard. Just about everyone in Western countries has heard so trying to then get into heaven by ones own 'deeds' will not cut it.
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Jesus
Dec 28, 2012 22:06:07 GMT 10
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2012 22:06:07 GMT 10
It states-
What happens to be who never heard the gospel. Romans teaches that God will judge people on what they know and are capable of knowing. We can know right and wrong and know there is one true God. Job did, Jethro did and many others. All can instinctively know His moral code and know they have sinned, As Paul writes they are without excuse.
Your conclusion does not follow from the above.
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Jesus
Dec 29, 2012 7:31:10 GMT 10
Post by slartibartfast on Dec 29, 2012 7:31:10 GMT 10
Amazing how often a supposed Christian gets thrashed in biblical arguments.
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Jesus
Dec 30, 2012 15:22:39 GMT 10
Post by Occam's Spork on Dec 30, 2012 15:22:39 GMT 10
Sample "dialogue" between two people who will never concede anything. One wonders why they bother ... Paleo-atheist: There is no god! It's a no-brainer! Paleo-god botherer: He exists, I tellya! It's a no brainer! Paleo-atheist: Prove he exists! Paleo-god botherer: Prove he doesn't! Paleo-atheist: The onus of proof is with you, dickhead! Paleo-god botherer: No, it's with you, cretin! Paleo-atheist: shit-for-brains! Paleo-god botherer: loser! ... and so the "dialogue" continujes, round and round and round and round ... You are right, aside from my half of it. Slarti is too narrow-minded to see beyond his 5 senses. I am merely pointing out, that because the demand for proof is a moral statement, and not a scientific one... He has over-reached his own criteria for the sake of his own denial. He has yet to see it.
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Jesus
Dec 30, 2012 15:24:57 GMT 10
Post by Occam's Spork on Dec 30, 2012 15:24:57 GMT 10
Amazing how often a supposed Christian gets thrashed in biblical arguments. Amazing how often you atheists can't follow a line of argumentation so that you can't see that you are losing.
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