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Post by slartibartfast on Aug 10, 2014 23:02:12 GMT 10
You said 30 years ago. The link clearly shows 2012! This is a disgrace that some people are so backward! What sort of education system is there? Monkey and Organgrinder? The link was made in 2012, the poll was done in the 1980's. Actually, the poll that EG posted was made in May 3-6, 2012. www.gallup.com/poll/155003/hold-creationist-view-human-origins.aspxHint - look at the date under the questions and answers.
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Post by slartibartfast on Aug 10, 2014 23:04:48 GMT 10
PS. How can I start a "flamewar" when you came up with the numbers and I haven't attacked you at all? You are attacking me indirectly; you know full well that I am a Christian! -You didn't say YE Creationists, you said: Christians. If you placed any other minority in place of Christian in that sentence, it'd be seen as offensive, and discriminatory. I'm only asking you to choose your words carefully. That is because you used the word " Christians", not " Creationists": Don't believe this is the consensus among most Christians, EG. In a Gallup poll 30 years ago only 46% agreed with the statement that: God created human beings within the last 10,000 years or so. Perhaps it is not I who needs to choose my words carefully, as I was quoting you.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 10, 2014 23:06:34 GMT 10
If that's the case, then fine. I don't really see how the date carries any particular relevance, slarti.
It only means the information is more current than I originally thought; it's still less than half. And that doesn't mean 'most' by anyone's standard.
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Post by slartibartfast on Aug 10, 2014 23:08:11 GMT 10
Your link does not mention either black holes or explosions.
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Post by slartibartfast on Aug 10, 2014 23:14:47 GMT 10
If that's the case, then fine. I don't really see how the date carries any particular relevance, slarti. It only means the information is more current than I originally thought; it's still less than half. And that doesn't mean 'most' by anyone's standard. It does in Australian politics, where if you had 46% of the vote you would be in government. As for the question actually asked, it is most common belief: The answers were: God created Humans within the last 10,000 years: 46%Humans evolved with God's guidance over millions of years: 32%God had nothing to do with it: 15%
So, in the context of this survey, it is indeed the "most". Maybe not by your standard, but by everyone else who understands surveys.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 10, 2014 23:23:15 GMT 10
Your link does not mention either black holes or explosions. Why don't you instead, research black holes or explosions. And see how much gravity they contain?
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 10, 2014 23:24:11 GMT 10
If that's the case, then fine. I don't really see how the date carries any particular relevance, slarti. It only means the information is more current than I originally thought; it's still less than half. And that doesn't mean 'most' by anyone's standard. It does in Australian politics, where if you had 46% of the vote you would be in government. As for the question actually asked, it is most common belief: The answers were: God created Humans within the last 10,000 years: 46%Humans evolved with God's guidance over millions of years: 32%God had nothing to do with it: 15%
So, in the context of this survey, it is indeed the "most". Maybe not by your standard, but by everyone else who understands surveys. You are comparing Apples with Oranges. We are talking statistics, this has nothing to do with the electoral college. And we were discussing YE creationism, not vs. anti-theism.
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Post by slartibartfast on Aug 10, 2014 23:25:09 GMT 10
Your link does not mention either black holes or explosions. Why don't you instead, research black holes or explosions. And see how much gravity they contain? Will I find that they go for seven days?
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 10, 2014 23:27:15 GMT 10
At the calculated source of the Big Bang, yes. Only 1 week has passed.
Out here, where we are expanding it's been Billions of years. So technically, both views are correct.
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Post by slartibartfast on Aug 10, 2014 23:31:43 GMT 10
It does in Australian politics, where if you had 46% of the vote you would be in government. As for the question actually asked, it is most common belief: The answers were: God created Humans within the last 10,000 years: 46%Humans evolved with God's guidance over millions of years: 32%God had nothing to do with it: 15%
So, in the context of this survey, it is indeed the "most". Maybe not by your standard, but by everyone else who understands surveys. You are comparing Apples with Oranges. We were discussing YE creationism, not vs. anti-theism. What? I am telling you that you don't know how to read a survey!
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 10, 2014 23:32:52 GMT 10
I'm saying if you scored a 46% on a math test, it wouldn't be considered a 'pass'. No matter how much you wanted to argue about the Australian voting system.
46% doesn't mean you got most of the questions right.
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Post by slartibartfast on Aug 10, 2014 23:34:10 GMT 10
Just in case you didn't understand it:
God created Humans within the last 10,000 years: 46% Humans evolved with God's guidance over millions of years: 32% God had nothing to do with it: 15%
So, in the context of this survey, it (i.e. 46%) is indeed the "most".
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Post by slartibartfast on Aug 10, 2014 23:35:15 GMT 10
I'm saying if you scored a 46% on a math test, it wouldn't be considered a 'pass'.\ No matter how much you wanted to argue about the Australian voting system. It wasn't a maths test! And you clearly don't understand the Australian preferential voting system.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 10, 2014 23:42:43 GMT 10
Just in case you didn't understand it: God created Humans within the last 10,000 years: 46%
Humans evolved with God's guidance over millions of years: 32%
God had nothing to do with it: 15%So, in the context of this survey, it (i.e. 46%) is indeed the " most". Right. But the topic is YE creationism, among Christians. You said: "MOST CHRISTIANS", not most AmericansWe are talking about the percentage of Christians, who believe the earth is 10,000 years old.--What does the bottom statistic have to do with that? (...And why to the lower 2 statistics only amount to 47%, when anyone's basic math should know the sum of the remainder ought to be 54%)
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Post by slartibartfast on Aug 10, 2014 23:54:27 GMT 10
Just in case you didn't understand it: God created Humans within the last 10,000 years: 46%
Humans evolved with God's guidance over millions of years: 32%
God had nothing to do with it: 15%So, in the context of this survey, it (i.e. 46%) is indeed the " most". Right. But the topic is YE creationism, among Christians. We are talking about the percentage of Christians, who believe the earth is 10,000 years old.--What does the bottom statistic have to do with that? (...And why to the lower 2 statistics only amount to 47%, when anyone's basic math should know the sum ought to be 54%) Yes, I understand 100%. I imagine that some chose not to answer! It was you who introduced this survey, not me, so the question you ask is not one you should ask me, but yourself! I also understand the meaning of the word "most". I do not understand why you keep mentioning YE Creationists and Christians. The people that took the survey were not Creationists of Christians, they were Americans. The preface is thus: PRINCETON, NJ -- Forty-six percent of Americans believe in the creationist view that God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years. The prevalence of this creationist view of the origin of humans is essentially unchanged from 30 years ago, when Gallup first asked the question. About a third of Americans believe that humans evolved, but with God's guidance; 15% say humans evolved, but that God had no part in the process. So what this means is that according to this survey 46% of Americans are Creationists, not 46% of Christians (in fact, that percentage is slightly higher as there were 15% who said that God had nothing to do with mankind and 78% said he/she did). Now do you get it?
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Post by slartibartfast on Aug 10, 2014 23:59:44 GMT 10
And on that note, I must go to bed as it's midnight and I have to get up in the morning.
It's been fun.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 11, 2014 2:04:08 GMT 10
I have. May I similarly suggest that he remove his 'most Christians are uneducated', comment? Sorry, but Slarti is correct. 67% of weekly church attendees and 55% of monthly church attendees is most. It is appalling that such a high percentage of people think that the Human species is less than 10,000 years old. He didn't say most "Church Attendees", he said most "Christians." --And he's wrong. That 40-50% includes Jews, as well.Young Earth Creationism (YEC) is the religious belief[1] that the Universe, Earth and all life on Earth were created by direct acts of God during a relatively short period, between 5,700 and 10,000 years ago.[2] Its primary adherents are those Christians and Jews[3] who, using a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative as a basis, believe that God created the Earth in six 24-hour days.[4][5] Young Earth Creationists differ from other creationists in that they believe in a strict-literal interpretation of the Bible regarding the age of the Earth. This contrasts with Old Earth Creationists, who believe that the six creation days of the Book of Genesis may be interpreted metaphorically and who accept the scientifically determined age of Earth and the universe.[6]
Since the mid-20th century, young Earth Creationists starting with Henry M. Morris have devised and promoted a pseudoscientific explanation called "creation science" as a basis for a religious belief in a supernatural, geologically recent creation.[7] Young Earth Creationism is contradicted by scientific evidence from numerous scientific disciplines that shows the age of the universe is 13.798±0.037 billion years, the formation of the Earth was 4.5 billion years ago, and life first appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago.[8][9][10][11]
Since 1982, between 40% and 50% of adults in the United States say they hold the young Earth view that "God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years" when Gallup asked for their views on the origin and development of human beings.[12] A 2011 Gallup survey reports that 30% of U.S. adults say they interpret the Bible literally. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationismAnd neither does that absolve slarti from his discriminatory comment. Whether he deems it to be true, or no.He needs to retract that statement; end of story.
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Post by slartibartfast on Aug 11, 2014 6:57:41 GMT 10
Sorry, but Slarti is correct. 67% of weekly church attendees and 55% of monthly church attendees is most. It is appalling that such a high percentage of people think that the Human species is less than 10,000 years old. He didn't say most "Church Attendees", he said most "Christians." --And he's wrong. That 40-50% includes Jews, as well.Young Earth Creationism (YEC) is the religious belief[1] that the Universe, Earth and all life on Earth were created by direct acts of God during a relatively short period, between 5,700 and 10,000 years ago.[2] Its primary adherents are those Christians and Jews[3] who, using a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative as a basis, believe that God created the Earth in six 24-hour days.[4][5] Young Earth Creationists differ from other creationists in that they believe in a strict-literal interpretation of the Bible regarding the age of the Earth. This contrasts with Old Earth Creationists, who believe that the six creation days of the Book of Genesis may be interpreted metaphorically and who accept the scientifically determined age of Earth and the universe.[6]
Since the mid-20th century, young Earth Creationists starting with Henry M. Morris have devised and promoted a pseudoscientific explanation called "creation science" as a basis for a religious belief in a supernatural, geologically recent creation.[7] Young Earth Creationism is contradicted by scientific evidence from numerous scientific disciplines that shows the age of the universe is 13.798±0.037 billion years, the formation of the Earth was 4.5 billion years ago, and life first appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago.[8][9][10][11]
Since 1982, between 40% and 50% of adults in the United States say they hold the young Earth view that "God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years" when Gallup asked for their views on the origin and development of human beings.[12] A 2011 Gallup survey reports that 30% of U.S. adults say they interpret the Bible literally. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationismAnd neither does that absolve slarti from his discriminatory comment. Whether he deems it to be true, or no.He needs to retract that statement; end of story. I refer the honourable Sporky to his comment, which started this "debate": Don't believe this is the consensus among most Christians, EG. In a Gallup poll 30 years ago only 46% agreed with the statement that: God created human beings within the last 10,000 years or so. End of Story. Nowhere does he mention Creationists, just Christians. The link does not tell us any differently. In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins
Highly religious Americans most likely to believe in creationism by Frank Newport PRINCETON, NJ -- Forty-six percent of Americans believe in the creationist view that God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years. The prevalence of this creationist view of the origin of humans is essentially unchanged from 30 years ago, when Gallup first asked the question. About a third of Americans believe that humans evolved, but with God's guidance; 15% say humans evolved, but that God had no part in the process. Why should I apologise for the Gallup poll he quoted?
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Post by slartibartfast on Aug 11, 2014 19:33:30 GMT 10
Thank you, EG, I thought my point was pretty obvious, but that strengthens it even more.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 13, 2014 10:32:27 GMT 10
The Prior was a statement of personal belief; I made no reference that my opinion had derived from the article. (That article followed in support of my statement; it wasn't result of.) Nice attempt, though. If that's what you think you are apologizing for, then you just don't get it. I expect you to apologize for your comment, not the Gallup poll. The Gallup poll didn't say "Most Christians are uneducated", that was all YOU. Slarti, Regardless of what was said or wasn't said; making a sweeping statement of most Christians based on some minor variance in admission, is hardly justification for calling most of ANY group 'uneducated'. Fathom also, that most of these Christians could be more educated than you. You don't know how far most Christians go in School. Which means, you spoke out of ignorance. I'd wager you never took the time to survey how much education most Christians had. You comment was disdainful, and I reiterate my comment: If that comment was used on any other minority, it would have been considered discriminatory, and you'd have been shunned for it. --Why is it different, because a particular group that YOU dislike, is now the target?--Are you going to once again move the goalpost, just to allow for it for slartibartfast? Instead of dancing the dance of a thousand inadequate justifications; how about just saying 'sorry'. Look, Slarti. This isn't difficult. Your comment was offensive to Christians. How do I know that? I am a Christian. It offended me. Ergo... (Insert obvious conclusion, here.) If you can't be ethical, I have zero respect for you. And there'll be no point in continued discourse.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 13, 2014 11:23:24 GMT 10
Oi Vey. Trying to cut that figure of 67% of weekly church-goers down by attempting to squeeze in Jews? Note: Jewish people in America account for only 1.8% of the population. Even if we subtract the total percentage of "Other" religions from that 67% (Take away 4.7%) we are left with 62.3% of Christians in America who believe that the Human species is less than 10,000 years old ... that's appalling. I shake my head at the parlous state of education in the USA. Parlous or no, it's the standard in America. So to say that "Most Christians are uneducated", would be a statement out of ignorance by that admission, alone. America still produces scientists, just like any other Country.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 13, 2014 11:30:56 GMT 10
That does indicate an appalling lack of education as Slarti commented.
Slarti didn't limit himself to simply comment on AMERICAN Christians. We clearly aren't going to agree on this, since we disagree on the standard in which one can be deemed 'educated'. However... Whether he was factually correct in saying it, is irrelevant. The fact remains: He's not ethically justified in stating it.(Consider this analogy: It's rarely proper etiquette to call out a fat man on the street, no matter how obese he is. --In fact, it's boorish and impolite. ) ...And that is my point. He was trolling, and his intent was to flame bait.
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Post by slartibartfast on Aug 14, 2014 7:21:38 GMT 10
The Prior was a statement of personal belief; I made no reference that my opinion had derived from the article. (That article followed in support of my statement; it wasn't result of.) Nice attempt, though. If that's what you think you are apologizing for, then you just don't get it. I expect you to apologize for your comment, not the Gallup poll. The Gallup poll didn't say "Most Christians are uneducated", that was all YOU. Slarti, Regardless of what was said or wasn't said; making a sweeping statement of most Christians based on some minor variance in admission, is hardly justification for calling most of ANY group 'uneducated'. Fathom also, that most of these Christians could be more educated than you. You don't know how far most Christians go in School. Which means, you spoke out of ignorance. I'd wager you never took the time to survey how much education most Christians had. You comment was disdainful, and I reiterate my comment: If that comment was used on any other minority, it would have been considered discriminatory, and you'd have been shunned for it. --Why is it different, because a particular group that YOU dislike, is now the target?--Are you going to once again move the goalpost, just to allow for it for slartibartfast? <ridiculous gif deleted> [Instead of dancing the dance of a thousand inadequate justifications; how about just saying 'sorry'. Look, Slarti. This isn't difficult. Your comment was offensive to Christians. How do I know that? I am a Christian. It offended me. Ergo... (Insert obvious conclusion, here.) If you can't be ethical, I have zero respect for you. And there'll be no point in continued discourse. As Sir Exy has pointed out, the facts are pretty clear cut. But nevertheless you don't seem to get the fact that you are the one who made this statement: D on't believe this is the consensus among most Christians, EG. In a Gallup poll 30 years ago only 46% agreed with the statement that: God created human beings within the last 10,000 years or so.
You are the one who mentioned Christians, you are the one who failed to add the word "American". Yet you want to blame me for your short-comings. The fact that I drew the obvious and correct conclusion from YOUR statement is YOUR fault and YOUR fault alone. The fact that what you said was correct doesn't seem to bother you, the fact that more than 46% of American Christians believe that the earth is less than 10,000 years old only adds to the obvious fact that I have nothing to apologise for. I am sorry that your own statement has caused you grief and discriminated against your kind.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 15, 2014 9:28:38 GMT 10
Once again, you miss the point. Just because you have a strong opinion, doesn't mean you are ethically correct in expressing it.
The common folk know this as: tact, and diplomacy. If you can't grasp these concepts; I'm sorry, you are socially impaired.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Aug 15, 2014 9:41:55 GMT 10
Occam's it is true that one does not have to be poorly educated to be a Christian, but it helps: PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE(a) REPORTING NO RELIGION BY LEVEL OF HIGHEST EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT, 2011Of American people 90% are theists. Of American Graduate degree holders 60% are theists. Of American Scientists 40% are theists. Of American Elite Scientists 7% are theists. *Let's disregard the obvious fact that you've just invalidated slarti's initial statement with that 60% statistic. (60%>40%) (60% is over half, which ISN'T most.) But you've also committed the fallacy of post hoc propter hoc, (after this, therefore because of this). Lets talk about the flip-side considerations of that statistic. It's a pretty big leap to presume those remaining scientists reject God because of some scientific awakening; perhaps they are simply unbelievers for reasons that are common to other atheists who are not scientists. (ie; their families weren't religious, they were mistreated by their congregation, etc.) Back to the point:My contention isn't about the factual accuracy of slarti's statement; it's his behavior that is on trial.That's why I called him on flaming, not inaccuracy.I invoke the Childhood axiom: "If you can't think of anything nice to say..."His subsequent comment(s) only support my belief continued that he intended to flame; and I stand and re-invoke my initial opinion.
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