|
Post by matt on Feb 14, 2013 23:06:51 GMT 10
I cannot see the big deal that Australia was not informed about the death of Ben Alon. Yes, he was a dual citizen, but while in Israel he was an Israeli citizen, therefore there should be no requirement for Israel to inform Australia.
|
|
|
Post by caskur on Feb 15, 2013 0:34:33 GMT 10
I cannot see the big deal that Australia was not informed about the death of Ben Alon. Yes, he was a dual citizen, but while in Israel he was an Israeli citizen, therefore there should be no requirement for Israel to inform Australia. However, they did send his body home so they couldn't have thought much of their "citizen".
|
|
|
Post by matt on Feb 15, 2013 0:44:02 GMT 10
His relatives live here, so they probably requested the body.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 5:28:14 GMT 10
Typical Mossad to assassinate without trial....arseholes.
|
|
|
Post by chequeredflaggg on Feb 15, 2013 6:18:30 GMT 10
is an Israeli..., and was in Israel...so it's really none of our fucking business just because like many he held one of our Cornflakes Packet passports..
same as when these musso Arab honeys get arrested for the usual mischief when on dubious visits to ME countries..ideal opportunity for us to rid ourselves of one of them..
|
|
|
Post by chequeredflaggg on Feb 15, 2013 6:20:44 GMT 10
Typical Mossad to assassinate without trial....arseholes. Believe it or not, prison is a high risk environment anywhere for anyone, and a LOT of people neck themselves or get knocked there.. Most of the time noone publicly even particularly hears about it, when the person is not high profile of some kind, or a member of an untouchable but "troubled" ethnic minority. all of these Indigenes whinging about this 'deaths in custody" shit, and it really is absolute shit, PLEASE TAKE NOTE!
|
|
|
Post by slartibartfast on Feb 15, 2013 6:29:52 GMT 10
AUSTRALIAN security officials suspect that Ben Zygier, the spy who died in secret in an Israeli prison cell in 2010, may have been about to disclose information about Israeli intelligence operations, including the use of fraudulent Australian passports, either to the Australian government or to the media before he was arrested. ''[Zygier] may well have been about to blow the whistle, but he never got the chance,'' an Australian security official with knowledge of the case told Fairfax Media yesterday. Sources in Canberra are insistent that the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) was not informed by its Israeli counterparts of the precise nature of the espionage allegations against Mr Zygier. However, it is understood that the former Melbourne law graduate had been in contact with Australian intelligence. He was in contact the day before he died with human rights lawyer Avigdor Feldman, who said last night: ''When I saw him, there was nothing to indicate he was going to commit suicide'', adding that he was rational, focused and without self-pity. Feldman said he was surprised ''that a man who was being held in a cell like that, a cell which was being monitored and checked 24-hours a day, could manage to commit suicide by hanging himself.'' ''I understood that he was told he was likely to face the longest possible jail term and that he was likely to be ostracised by his family,'' he said. Israeli intelligence informed ASIO of Mr Zygier's arrest and detention just eight days after authorities in Dubai revealed that suspected Israeli agents had used fraudulent Australian passports in the assassination of a Palestinian militant leader. The subsequent crisis in Australian-Israeli intelligence relations provided the context in which the Australian diplomats did not seek access to Mr Zygier, who was regarded by Australian security officials as being a potential whistleblower on Israeli intelligence operations. Foreign Minister Bob Carr and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) on Wednesday revealed that the Australian government first learnt of Mr Zygier's detention through ''intelligence channels'' on February 24, 2010. ''The Australian government was informed in February 2010 through intelligence channels that the Israeli authorities had detained a dual Australian-Israeli citizen - and they provided the name of the citizen - in relation to serious offences under Israeli national security legislation,'' Senator Carr told a Senate hearing. Fairfax Media has been told by security sources that ASIO's liaison office in Tel Aviv was notified of Mr Zygier's detention by the Israeli domestic intelligence agency Shin Bet. It is understood that ASIO promptly notified the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade including the Australian ambassador to Israel, Andrea Faulkner. An interim report to Senator Carr has reportedly advised that Australian intelligence agencies told DFAT officials about Mr Zygier's detention shortly after his arrest in February 2010. However, officials were unclear whether then foreign minister Stephen Smith was briefed. Senator Carr's office declined to respond when asked about the government's precise knowledge of Israeli allegations about Mr Zygier. As no request for consular assistance was made by Mr Zygier or his family, the matter was left to be dealt with through intelligence channels. No consular contact was made with Mr Zygier. It became involved on his death in December 2010. Mr Zygier's detention came at an increasingly tense time in Australian-Israeli relations. On February 16, 2010, Dubai authorities publicly revealed that suspected Israeli agents had used Western passports in the assassination of Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in the United Arab Emirates. News of the Israeli passport fraud brought a strong reaction from then prime minister Kevin Rudd. On February 25, according to a United States diplomatic cable published by WikiLeaks, DFAT told the US embassy in Canberra that ''Australian officials are 'furious' all the way up the chain of command over the incident''. Mr Smith called a press conference to announce that he had summoned Israel's ambassador for an explanation. On February 27, three days after the Australian government learned of Mr Zygier's detention, Fairfax Media reported that at least three Australian-Israeli dual citizens had been under investigation by ASIO in relation to alleged Israeli espionage activity while using Australian passports. One of those people, not named by Fairfax Media at the time, was Mr Zygier. It was not suggested that the Australians under investigation were linked to the events in Dubai. Australia's embassy in Tel Aviv had already complained to Israeli authorities about the passport abuse. Australian Federal Police investigators subsequently travelled to Israel to pursue the Dubai passport fraud case, and that was followed by a visit to Tel Aviv by ASIO Director-General David Irvine, who met Israeli intelligence chiefs. Mr Irvine subsequently provided a classified report to the government on the issue. However, security sources have told Fairfax Media that the ASIO chief did not raise the case of Mr Zygier. Senator Carr yesterday told a Senate hearing that the Australian government sought ''specific assurances'' that Mr Zygier's legal rights would be respected and that ''the Israeli government responded that the individual would be treated in accordance with his lawful rights as an Israeli citizen. The government relied on these assurances.'' DFAT yesterday declined to provide details of these exchanges. On May 24, 2010, Mr Smith told Federal Parliament that the Australian government was ''in no doubt that Israel was responsible for the abuse and counterfeiting of [Australian] passports'' in Dubai and announced that a senior unnamed Israeli diplomat was being expelled. The expelled diplomat, given one week to leave Australia was Israeli Embassy counsellor Eli Elkoubi, an officer of the Israeli foreign intelligence service, Mossad. Israeli diplomats complained privately after Mr Elkoubi's name and status as an intelligence officer was published in The Canberra Times in June 2010. Although the Australian government did not deliberately reveal Mr Elkoubi's status as a Mossad officer, the Israelis believed the disclosure was a further act of retaliation. Security sources have told Fairfax Media that the consequent freeze of Australian-Israeli intelligence co-operation meant that Zygier's case wasn't pursued further by either ASIO or the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade before his death while in secret detention in December 2010. Israel Ambassador Yuval Rotem refused to comment on the issue on Thursday. ''When I can, I shall let you know,'' Mr Rotem said. Read more: www.theage.com.au/national/zygier-close-to-spilling-on-israel-20130214-2eg0l.html#ixzz2KuJwGONv
|
|
|
Post by matt on Feb 15, 2013 9:21:51 GMT 10
In Israel, he was a citizen of Israel.
|
|
|
Post by pim on Feb 15, 2013 10:05:25 GMT 10
Ho hum
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 13:02:30 GMT 10
is an Israeli..., and was in Israel...so it's really none of our f***ing business just because like many he held one of our Cornflakes Packet passports.. same as when these musso Arab c***s get arrested for the usual mischief when on dubious visits to ME countries..ideal opportunity for us to rid ourselves of one of them.. Hahaha....I luuuuurve it when you graphically display your true natural state of being full of bitterness, hatred, racism, bigotry, etc.
|
|
|
Post by matt on Feb 15, 2013 15:02:33 GMT 10
If a person is a citizen of a nation they reside in, why should that nation inform anyone else?
|
|
|
Post by pim on Feb 15, 2013 15:43:34 GMT 10
Matt's got a point (for a change!). If you're all talking about consular assistance for Australian citizens resident abroad, you really need to do so on the basis of accurate information about what exactly does "consular assistance" consist of. Here's a link from the Dept of Foreign Affairs that tells you not just what can be done for you if you're overseas and you need "consular assistance", but also what they can't do so don't even bother asking them www.smartraveller.gov.au/services/consular-services-charter.htmlOn both occasions that I lived overseas, back in the 1970s and also in 2004-6, I needed to get "stuff" from the Australian authorities. I recall I had to submit an Australian tax return through the Embassy in Switzerland because they have a little office of the Australian Treasury there for Australians who have earned income that's taxable under Australian law. That's "consular assistance". My eldest daughter was born in the 1970s in France and we had to go to the Embassy in Paris to get an Australian birth certificate for her, plus have her mother's Australian passport endorsed with our daughter's details - otherwise we wouldn't have been able to bring her back with us. That's "consular assistance". In 2006 I needed to have some documents witnessed that I needed to lodge in Australia. I had that done at the Australian Consulate in Geneva - cost me an arm & a leg to get that done, too!! That's "consular assistance" even if it came at a rip off price! "Consular assistance" covers a multitude of things. Just because you live in another country there are still things such as my own personal examples given above that you need from the Australian Government. I even voted in Australian elections when I was o'seas. I applied for a postal vote through the Embassy and lodged the vote through that Embassy. That's "consular assistance". Very little of it is free so don't think you're getting something for nothing. As for the obligations of the local government, if the individual is a dual national then there's nothing wrong with that. Millions - and I mean millions - of Australian citizens are also citizens of another country. I'll bet quite a few members right here on NTB are dual nationals or have residency rights in another country by virtue of family background. One of your grandparents was British? Then you have patrial status in the UK that gives you the right to live & work there. Did Prisoner X register with the Australian Embassy in Israel when he went there to live? He had the right to do so and it was up to him to avail himself of that right. If he failed to avail himself of that right (and I have no idea whether he did or didn't) then you can't blame the Australian authorities for being unaware.
|
|
|
Post by matt on Feb 15, 2013 23:32:25 GMT 10
I believe if someone uses the passport of the nation they are entering, then they should have no right to assistance from Australia. If a person uses a French passport to enter France, even if they have Australian Citizenship, then at that point, and in that nation, they are considered FRENCH.
Ben Alon chose to become an Israeli citizen, no one forced him to. He was an Israeli in Israel, and Australia should have no responsibility for him. He was more than an Israeli Citizen, he was a Mossad agent, illegally using his Australian passport to spy on behalf of a foreign government.
I get quite sick to death of citizens of convenience. I also believe it is evidence as to why dual citizenship should not be allowed. I believe if a person chooses to become a citizen of another nation, they should lose their citizenship in Australia automatically and their passport cancelled.
I understand some people don't have a choice, some nations confer citizenship automatically based on the citizenship of their birth parents. However, in that case, if that person applies for a passport of the nation which they have had citizenship automatically conferred upon them, that should be taken as evidence that they're renouncing their Australian citizenship.
YOU CANNOT SERVE TWO MASTERS!
AUSSIE, AUSSIE, AUSSIE... OI, OI, OI!
/
|
|
|
Post by caskur on Feb 16, 2013 0:31:31 GMT 10
Nothing matters... you cannot bring back the dead.
I would say spying is a high risk job... you die... tough luck!
|
|
|
Post by pim on Feb 16, 2013 5:21:09 GMT 10
I believe if someone uses the passport of the nation they are entering, then they should have no right to assistance from Australia. If a person uses a French passport to enter France, even if they have Australian Citizenship, then at that point, and in that nation, they are considered FRENCH. You can believe what you want, Matt. The plain fact is that if you hold an Australian passport and are an Australian citizen then you have the right to register at the nearest Australian consulate and to avail yourself of services offered to Australian citizens by the Australian Government. End of story. Illegally? Under whose law? Australian law? I'm not disputing the facts that you present, just the interpretation: 1) Did he choose to beome an Israeli citizen? Nothing illegal about that. 2) He was an Israeli in Israel? Sounds about right. So what? 3) Australia should have no responsibility for him - ah now that's interpretation! Australian law says otherwise. 4) He was more than an Israeli citizen? Dunno how you can be "more" than a citizen when the idea of citizenship is that nobody is "more" or "less" a citizen than any other citizen. It's called "democracy" an the central idea is that as citizens we are all equal before the law. 5) He was a Mossad agent? OK, I'm sure ASIS would have been interested in that, and if he'd come back to Australia ASIO might have had a quiet word, but I don't know if that was illegal. That one's a grey area. 6) He used his Australian passport "illegally" to spy on behalf of a foreign givernment? So now you're an expert on Australian law as it relates to Australian passports are you, Matt? What the hell would you know about that? I use my Australian passport to leave and enter Australia, and my EU passport when in Europe. I have to tell you, Matt: when you rock up to Heathrow Airport and you can go into the EU passports queue, or to the queue marked "other passports" with your Australian passport, you go to the EU passports queue and cruise through in minutes. Unless you're Matt of course and you enjoy spending a long time in queues! My point is that Australian passports don't give you many advantages overseas. So what are you talking about! Not much point in getting into a lather about this, Matt. The law is the law and Australian law says it's quite OK for Australian citizens to be citizens of another country. And before anyone on this board tries to turn that into a "Labor vs Liberal" thing, let me tell you it's bipartisn. The citizenship law that allows dual nationality went through under the Howard Government. So there. Eat your heart out, Matt. Gnaw on your entrails about it. I see. I also notice that you're starting to become hysterical. Does that mean you're starting to gnaw on your entrails? Now you are hysterical. That chant reminds me of something. Y'know I have at home an old documentary on a VCR that I'd recorded way back in the dim past when VCRs were standard equipment. Before DVDs. I still possess a VCR player and it works so I played it. I'd forgotten I had it so I was curious to see what it was. It was an old "Cutting Edge" program I'd recorded from SBS about the murder of a civil rights activist named Medgar Evers in the state of Mississippi way back in the early 1960s. The chief suspect was a white supremacist called Byron de la Beckwith. Bizarre name. He pronounced the "de la" part as "dee lay". It took three trials to convict him. He was interviewed for the program. Anyhow, the program showed footage of a march by the KKK through the streets of some town or other in Mississippi. There were several chants. One of them was "White power!" Another chant was one which I don't think Proboards will let me type here. Let's say it consisted of two words. The first word is an N word that rhymes with "trigger", "rigour" and "figure". They'd scream that word out three times in rapid succession followed by "out! out! out!" The way they did it sounded uncannily like your "Aussie Aussie" thing. Very telling! Is that what your "Christianity" teaches you?
|
|
|
Post by matt on Feb 16, 2013 12:36:00 GMT 10
Pim, well, sorry that being an Australian Citizen is so inconvenient for you. Wont be long until the UK leaves the E.U. and there wont be a special line.
I am AUSTRALIAN, and if it creates a little inconvenience then so be it. I travel with an Australian passport, as I am an AUSTRALIAN.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2013 12:41:28 GMT 10
I am AUSTRALIAN, and if it creates a little inconvenience then so be it. I travel with an Australian passport, as I am an AUSTRALIAN. Really? And here am I thinking that all this time you were Bidelonian
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2013 13:43:33 GMT 10
From the Los Angeles Times....Suspected Israel spy's death puts government on the defensiveAustralian Israeli Ben Zygier's hanging death in jail leaves many questions. Details are emerging despite a court-imposed gag order.By EDMUND SANDERS | 3:33PM - Thursday, February 14, 2013Australian newspapers have put the story of Austalian Israeli Ben Zygier on their front pages. — Photo: William West/AFP/Getty Images/February 14, 2013.JERUSALEM — The full story may never be known of why a baby-faced Australian Israeli attorney came under suspicion of working for the Mossad spy agency and then died alone in an Israeli jail cell charged with betraying the country he had adopted.
But as the political drama over Ben Zygier's 2010 arrest and death swept through Israel on Thursday, it left virtually no institution unscathed.
Mossad was scrambling to contain possible damage to its operations in Iran and other places where Zygier is believed to have traveled using his Australian passport.
The Prison Service faced embarrassing questions about how a high-risk detainee could be found hanged in solitary confinement.
Courts were under fire for imposing an unusually broad gag order. Israeli news media were being criticized for missing the story. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was viewed as clumsily trying to suppress coverage in Israel even after the Australian Broadcasting Corp. on Tuesday aired a report about the case, sparking international attention.
Even some members of the Knesset, Israel's parliament, were accused of circumventing the court's gag order by publicly commenting on the case.
"The real loser in all of this is the public interest," said Hagai El-Ad, executive director of Assn. for Civil Rights in Israel.
With Israel's confirmation that one of its citizens, initially identified in news reports as "Prisoner X," died of an apparent suicide in 2010 while in custody, scrutiny is turning to the government's handling of the affair and the unsuccessful effort to keep it a secret.
Some are calling for the appointment of an independent inquiry commission, but given the sensitivity of the case, which Israeli officials say threatens their national security, a public debate is unlikely.
New details emerged Thursday as a former attorney for Zygier confirmed that the 24-year-old former Israeli soldier was indicted for "grave crimes" but appeared calm and rational during a meeting shortly before his death to discuss a possible plea agreement.
Attorney Avigdor Feldman told Israel's Channel 10 that Zygier was under heavy pressure from interrogators, who told him he faced a long prison sentence and ostracism by his family, including his wife and two children in Israel and prominent Jewish parents in Melbourne, Australia, where he grew up.
"There was no heartstring they did not pull, and I suppose that ultimately brought about the tragic end," Feldman said.
The most immediate shock wave from the case is likely to hit Mossad, whose operations and operatives may have been put at risk when the story was exposed internationally, said former Mossad agent and security analyst Gad Shimron.
"Of course this will be damaging," he said.
If Zygier's passport was used for travel to Iran, Syria and Lebanon — as Australian security officials have alleged to Australian news media — security agencies in those countries probably are scouring their records, surveillance cameras and other databases for information about when he visited, what he did, whom he met and who traveled with him.
"In the 21st century, with Google Earth, when cellular calls are recorded and security cameras are everywhere, information about one person can lead to a real cascade of spy networks," Shimron said.
Israel learned a similar lesson after the 2010 assassination of Hamas operative Mahmoud Mabhouh in a hotel room in Dubai, United Arab Emirates, allegedly by the Mossad. Much of the operation was captured on surveillance cameras, enabling Dubai police to release more than two dozen pictures of suspected Israeli agents on the Internet, in effect blowing their cover.
A Kuwaiti newspaper Thursday alleged that Zygier, who also used the names Ben Allen, Ben Alon and Ben Burrows, took part in the January 2010 operation and had offered to provide information to Dubai police when he was arrested by Israelis. The account could not be verified.
"I don't envy anyone who had to deal with this matter," Shimron said. "It's an extraordinary case that shows the inner conflict between democracy, which wants transparency, and the secret service, which wants everything in the dark."
Critics say such secrecy is harder to achieve in today's world of fast-spreading information. They say the Zygier case exposed the futility of Israel's continuing use of military censorship and court-imposed gag orders to conceal information from the Israeli public even after it has been exposed in other countries or on the Internet.
The latest gag order, which Israel's military censor said Thursday had been approved by the Supreme Court, included a rare ban that bars Israel news organizations from even citing or publishing foreign news reports, including those on websites that any Internet user could find.
"The government used very old-fashioned ways of withholding the information," said Tehilla Altshuler, head of a media reform project at the Israel Democracy Institute.
Such bans might have worked a generation ago, critics say, but today they resemble efforts more common in dictatorships than in democracies.
"It's not only out-of-date, it's ineffective," said civil rights activist El-Ad, whose group tried unsuccessfully to overturn the gag order. "It shouldn't be that the last people who can read about something in Israel are Israelis themselves."
Though Israeli officials insist that Zygier received due process and legal representation, El-Ad said there are too many unanswered questions about his treatment, including why he was kept in solitary confinement and how he managed to kill himself while in custody.
"It's impossible to make an informed judgment because we don't know," he said. "If these issues were sufficiently debated, it would negate the possibility that we will ever have another Prisoner X in this country."
A national debate about the handling of such cases might be one of the few upsides for Israel, said Michael Partem, head of the Movement for Quality Government, a watchdog group.
"Nothing that I've seen so far in this case sets off any alarm bells, but it's legitimate to ask authorities about the procedures," he said. "Even in the world of cloak and dagger, you need procedures."
Yet Partem predicted that the Israeli public, which usually displays a high degree of trust in its security agencies, will give the government institutions the benefit of the doubt, particularly with the public's recent focus on the economy and pocketbook issues.
"This seems to be such an exceptional case that I don't think Joe Citizen will worry about it," he said. "It's not as if it's about the price of cottage cheese."www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/middleeast/la-fg-israel-spy-case-20130215,0,4938026,full.story
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2013 13:47:11 GMT 10
SMIRK....so those dumb Israelis thought they could cover the story up by enacting what they learnt from Dr Josef Goebbels in an attempt to suppress the freedom of information in the Israeli news media?
Haw haw haw....the dumbarses merely attracted attention to themselves in news media all over the world, including the Los Angeles Times and major newspapers in New Zealand and showed up what a bunch of despots the Israelis and Mossad really are.
Still, that idiot Matty-boy still loves them, eh?
|
|
|
Post by pim on Feb 16, 2013 14:21:31 GMT 10
Pim, well, sorry that being an Australian Citizen is so inconvenient for you. Now now, Matt! Telling lies, verballing people, and attributing things that aren't true to people who just happen to disagree with you is unChristian. At least, that's what I was told when I had to learn my catechism as a kid. Throwing in some bullshit for good measure won't convince anyone either. Is this supposed to be some kind of pathetic "answer" to my post?? And top it off with a bit of jingoistic chauvinism, sprinkled on top with some capital letters. Oh ... is that it?? There's nothing else? Oh ... OK Matt ends not with a bang but with a whimper ...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2013 19:22:43 GMT 10
Israel is not acting like a democracy or a normal state, Mossad is just a killing agency.
|
|
|
Post by matt on Feb 16, 2013 22:47:28 GMT 10
Israel is not acting like a democracy or a normal state, Mossad is just a killing agency. What do you think MI6 and CIA do? Stop picking on Israel!
|
|
|
Post by matt on Feb 17, 2013 9:14:03 GMT 10
No reply = defeated.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 12:43:34 GMT 10
Israel acts far differently to MI6 or the CIA, these organisation act within international laws, they don't hold people in high security prisons without notification to governments involved and to families, if not for prison guards Ben Zygier would still be unknown....made to disappear.
He was using an Australian passport for his dirty deeds and most likely had a change of heart about what he was doing and so became a threat to Isarel.
Created out of Israel's paranoia Mossad is purely an assassination organisation.
A lesson learn't for any Australian who gets the silly notion to become an agent for Mossad and its evil deeds, or even to become a citizen and have to join the IDF to shoot Palestinian kids.
|
|
|
Post by matt on Feb 17, 2013 18:32:01 GMT 10
The United States does make people disappear, they do hold people in jail without charge and the CIA does bomb people. The CIA owns lots of drones that can be armed with missiles.
|
|