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Post by Occam's Spork on May 29, 2020 6:19:43 GMT 10
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Post by pim on May 29, 2020 8:35:49 GMT 10
Hmm I’d like to flesh that one out with you but don’t have time right now. The two trolls are going to leap on this and distort it so much that I’ll find myself obliged to defend you against their troll posts when I’d prefer to offer my own critique. So let’s leapfrog the inevitable troll posts. There’s a lot to unpack that I’d take issue with in your post so I’ll get back to you when I have more time.
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Post by Gort on May 29, 2020 12:24:14 GMT 10
Well, that discussion got off to a flying start eh?  |
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Post by KTJ on May 29, 2020 19:55:13 GMT 10
Fundy-mental christians claim their god delusion is going to torture & burn non-believers for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.
I'd call their god delusion a nasty, sadistic arsehole, eh?
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Post by fat on May 29, 2020 20:26:12 GMT 10
Yes - he has a good point but I think we really only have leftovers nowdays - the rot commenced when Constantine made it the state religion marrying Christianity to politics, militarisation and avarice. The moral codes we have are now all relative and the majority hold the rulebook.
2 Timothy 4:3 "For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear."
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Post by Occam's Spork on May 30, 2020 2:24:28 GMT 10
Fundy-mental christians claim their god delusion is going to torture & burn non-believers for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.
I'd call their god delusion a nasty, sadistic arsehole, eh? Only if you believe Hell is punishment; not a consequence. If someone insists on walking off a cliff, gravity can't be to blame for the fool's decision. |
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Post by KTJ on May 30, 2020 7:26:21 GMT 10
Fundy-mental christians claim their god delusion is going to torture & burn non-believers for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.
I'd call their god delusion a nasty, sadistic arsehole, eh? Only if you believe Hell is punishment; not a consequence. If someone insists on walking off a cliff, gravity can't be to blame for the fool's decision.
Which means your god really is a nasty, sadistic aresehole which gets off on torture. |
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Post by Occam's Spork on May 31, 2020 2:09:55 GMT 10
Only if you believe Hell is punishment; not a consequence. If someone insists on walking off a cliff, gravity can't be to blame for the fool's decision.
Which means your god really is a nasty, sadistic aresehole which gets off on torture.Which makes your argument completely redundant, because if you wish to embrace the belief that God created everything, then you must also accept that He created the moral standard which allows you to judge Him as "a nasty, sadistic *arsehole* which gets off on torture." There is also the likelihood that you are completely off in your understanding of what Hell is, and who God is. |
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Post by KTJ on May 31, 2020 6:02:30 GMT 10
I said “you theists believe your god created everything” which shows I was post a hypothetical situation where you believe your god exists, therefore in your minds you god created a perpetual torture chamber and therefore your imaginary god is a nasty, sadistic arsehole which gets off on torture.
I guess your stained-glass, brainwashed mind doesn't allow you to understand simple nuances like that, eh?
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Post by Occam's Spork on Jun 2, 2020 1:50:41 GMT 10
I said “you theists believe your god created everything” which shows I was post a hypothetical situation where you believe your god exists, therefore in your minds you god created a perpetual torture chamber and therefore your imaginary god is a nasty, sadistic arsehole which gets off on torture.
I guess your stained-glass, brainwashed mind doesn't allow you to understand simple nuances like that, eh? Look genius, it's not that difficult: Hell is separation from God. God is Good God respects free will because he is good. God allows people to willingly reject him. Rejecting God is the same as rejecting good because God is the source of all that is 'good' Hell is such a terrible place because it is the absence of good. Hell is the absence of good because it is the absence of God. Ergo, God doesn't send people to Hell, people choose it because they reject Him. It's a consequence. |
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Post by pim on Jun 2, 2020 8:42:46 GMT 10
I agree with Fat’s point that the rot started when Constantine made Christianity legal. Maybe with one quibble that Constantine’s Edict of Milan of the year 310 validated Christianity but didn’t make Christianity the only religious show in town. It could exist and was free to proselytise alongside the plethora of traditional pagan cults. So priests and bishops could celebrate the Eucharist and soothsayers and vestal virgins could guard against the Evil Eye. The term « pagan » is derived from the Latin word for « village » which was « pagus ». It gives us the French « pays » and by extension « paysan » which is French for « peasant ». So « peasant » is out of the same linguistic stable as « pagan ». In short, the term « pagan » was a derogatory term used by Christians to refer to people who adhered to the old cults as hillbillies, country bumpkins, yokels. The native English word, which is of Anglo Saxon origin, is «heathen». “Pagan” makes sense when you realise that early Christianity was an urban phenomenon and that the old heathen cults lingered longest among the rural peasantry. A case in point was the belief in fairies (forget everything you heard about fairies from Walt Disney, think Shakespeare’s character Puck in A Midsummer Night’s Dream, or Ariel in The Tempest), Robin Hood (another character from myth and legend completely distorted, bowdlerised and sanitised by Disney) was a forest sprite and the belief in witchcraft which has never completely died out and I am convinced never will. These are all relics from a very ancient pre-Christian past. We have a large expat Greek and Italian community in Australia. Melbourne is apparently the largest Greek city after Athens. Hard to believe but it’s true. I’ve had Greek Australian colleagues tell me how their old grandmother would “guard against the Evil Eye”. Superstitious? I guess it is but the superstition in making the sign against the Evil Eye is a lot more ancient than Catholics making the Sign of the Cross. The word “blessing” in Dutch is “zegen” which is out of the same linguistic stable as the English “sign”. Pagan hangover? The real difference, to return to Fat’s point about the rot setting in, was when the Emperor Theodosius issued the Edict of Thessalonica in the year 380, 70 years after the Edict of Milan, which made Christianity the only show in town. And when I say “Christianity” I’m referring to Nicene Christianity as per the Nicene Creed. This wasn’t just about banishing the heathen cults, it was also aimed at banishing all other forms of Christianity which were legion. So at a stroke Gnosticism was declared illegal, as was Monophysite Christianity, as was Arian Christianity etc etc. and their property was confiscated. And this brings us to Fat’s point: basically what the Edict of Thessalonica did was introduce Orthodoxy which is Greek for “correct teaching”. Orthodox Christianity (not to be confused with the later Eastern Rite Orthodox tradition which dates from the Schism of 1054) declared all other forms of Christianity heretical and had the full power and military might of the Roman Empire to enforce that policy. It’s been downhill all the way ever since, I’m afraid ... I’ve got a lot more to say and I want to address what your quote says about early Christianity v paganism. I’m sorry but I take issue with a lot of what that guy says. Another time! Right now it’s breakfast time. |
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Post by fat on Jun 3, 2020 2:11:19 GMT 10
Thanks pim - I learn new stuff all the time.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Jun 3, 2020 3:06:51 GMT 10
I agree with Fat’s point that the rot started when Constantine made Christianity legal. Maybe with one quibble that Constantine’s Edict of Milan of the year 310 validated Christianity but didn’t make Christianity the only religious show in town. It could exist and was free to proselytise alongside the plethora of traditional pagan cults. The Edict wasn't a push to convert all citizens to the cause of Christianity, rather it was an agreement to treat Christians benevolently within the Roman Empire. Christians were being hunted and killed up until this point. Many pagans became nominal Christians, only to win the favour of Constantine himself. How many of these faux converts secretly continued their pagan rituals within the Church walls under the guise of Christianity? This is one of the reasons I am highly suspicious of some traditional Roman Christian practices. It's likely why I am Protestant. P.S. Pim, I may be wrong, I think the Edict of Milan was in 313AD. |
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Post by pim on Jun 3, 2020 8:45:13 GMT 10
You might be right on the date Occam. Perhaps 310 was the year of the battle of Milvan Bridge in which Constantine attributed his victory to the Christian god. There’s a legend that before the battle he’d had an epiphany - a dream, what else? - in which a cross appeared with the Latin words “in hoc signo vinces” = with this sign conquer. Whatever the truth or otherwise it proved enough of a rallying cry for his troops to go into battle with a cross painted on their shields. It was one of those civil wars that Rome was plagued with during its decline in the late Roman Empire whereby first this general would stage a military coup and call himself emperor only to be overthrown by a rival general who’d call himself emperor only to be overthrown by yet another rival who’d ... and so it went on until Constantine was the last coupmaster left standing.
Constantine himself never embraced Christianity according to some accounts until he was on his deathbed. He was probably one of those “nominal” Christians that you refer to who made a pragmatic political judgement that what the Empire needed was a unifying principle to stop it from fragmenting and he latched onto Christianity. His mother was a Christian and apparently she got a saint’s gong. But not Constantine who was an adherent of the “Sol Invicta” cult of sun worship.
There’s truth in what you say about pagan relics in Roman Catholicism. There’s the Mariolatry whereby they’ve for all intents and purposes turned Mary into a goddess. They’d deny it of course but “by their deeds shall ye know them” as the saying goes. Then there’s the whole pantheon of saints which is what Christianity substituted for the old heathen gods. The most fundamental difference between Catholic Christianity and Protestant Christianity is that where for Catholics it’s about the Sacrament, for Protestants it’s about the Word.
It’s not easy to be a Catholic in Australia these days with the scandal of clerical child abuse involving Catholic clergy going right up to Cardinal Pell. The fact that he’s been released from jail and had his conviction quashed on appeal only means that accusations of historical sex offences where there’s no corroborating testimony from a third party for things that are alleged to have happened a long time ago are difficult, if not impossible, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. The case has polarised people and even split families. I had a sharp exchange with a family member who insists that the High Court appeal that overturned Pell’s conviction and jail sentence somehow established his innocence while I argue that it means that Pell was released because they failed to prove his guilt. But the issue of child abuse has wracked the Catholic Church in Australia and trashed its reputation. The Royal Commission (the highest and most powerful type of judicial enquiry you can have in Australia is called a Royal Commission. In legal terms it’s the State Governor or the Governor General who signs off on a Royal Commission in the name of the Queen so in formal terms the Royal Commission reports its findings back to the Governor General) into child abuse took years and uncovered a systematic web of child abuse within Catholic institutions going back decades that shocked us to the core and resulted in an archbishop and finally the Cardinal himself being charged and convicted. Neither conviction stood up to the appeal process but the damage was done. Pell as a young priest was in a parish in a town called Ballarat which, in historical hindsight, would have been the most dangerous town for children in Australia. There was a nest of priests in that parish whose crimes against children were so bad they’re still in jail and will probably never be released. Good riddance.
This cancer of child abuse isn’t confined to Australia, as you know. The cover ups and “protection racket” attitude of the hierarchy infect the Church throughout the world reaching right into the Vatican. It’s the most profound moral and spiritual crisis that institutional Catholicism has faced since the Protestant Reformation and I don’t know how it’s going to end. I’m not troubled by the sacramental aspects of Catholicism and at the same time I have the deepest respect for the great Protestant reformers like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, and in later centuries Wesley. I think that rather than weakening Christianity the Protestant Reformation rescued Christianity from a monolithic Roman model, and enriched it. I don’t know how it’s going to play out for Rome or where it goes from here. I was hopeful that with a “people’s pope” from Argentina the mould might be broken. He needed to start by addressing the issue of child abuse but appears to be helpless in dealing with the Vatican clerical mafiosi who remain in denial and remain in a powerful position to prevent any sort of opening up of Roman Catholicism. Alas I fear that all the hopes and optimism of John XXIII proved to be a false dawn. Stodge rules.
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Post by pim on Jun 3, 2020 11:10:57 GMT 10
Occam and Fat you might find this title interesting. It’s content rich. Those who aren’t into heavy reading based on serious scholarship might find it mind-numbing ...  |
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Post by fat on Jun 6, 2020 4:16:28 GMT 10
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Post by pim on Jun 6, 2020 8:28:26 GMT 10
Hi Fat, with the coronavirus lockdown and closed state borders there haven’t been any trips on the Sturt Highway between Adelaide and Canberra when I can make a stop on the way and have a pub meal catch up in Gol Gol with you and your charming lady wife. Maybe in 2021, who knows.
For Occam’s cultural benefit Gol Gol is the name of a country town a long way from anywhere and it’s derived from the local First Nations language. They are the Wiradjuri people, one of the great First Nations tribes of New South Wales. Fat might correct me here about whether the Wiradjuri extend to the Mildura area. There’s a little bit of doubt niggling in the back of my mind ... Anyway these languages form their plurals by repeating the noun. If only I knew what a “Gol” was I’d understand why “Gol Gol” means a lot of ‘em! So when I drive the 1200 km from Adelaide to Canberra I pass through places with double names: Gol Gol, Wagga Wagga ...
I jest, but I’m quite fond of the First Nations names in this country. Occam when I travelled from Vancouver in your country to Victoria on Vancouver Island I took the ferry from Tsawwassen which is the First Nations name for the ferry port. I couldn’t pronounce the name but I appreciated the First Nations reference.
To go back to the book Pagans and Christians the reason I find it interesting is that it explores the pagan universe that pre-Constantine Christianity existed in, and its intellectual response to Christianity which to me is summed up in the cry of anguish “Pan is dead!” which swept through the Empire as Christianity became the Empire’s official religion. “Pan” is more than the name of a horned god with goat’s hooves. The word “pan” is Greek and it has a generic reference. It means “all” so “pantheon” means “all the gods”. In medicine a cure-all is a panacea, an epidemic that has gone global is a pandemic and a fit of terror that affects everyone and causes general irrational behaviour is called “panic”. You get the idea. So the cry “Pan is dead” is a reference to all the old pagan gods. For Christians that was a cause for celebration but for pagans there was only despair at the end of something very old which had always defined them.
The pagan response to Christianity, when Christianity existed in a majority pagan universe, wasn’t always hostile. Believe it or not there was also a debate because we’re talking about two different intellectual, cultural and moral universes. The fact that even today there are ancient pagan relics in our culture, e.g. our days of the week are named after pagan gods, is testimony to the enduring power of this ancient culture that preceded Christianity. The book is the only one that I’ve come across that explores this topic with a certain scholarly rigour.
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Post by fat on Jun 7, 2020 1:49:00 GMT 10
Would enjoy a visit pim. Most of the groups of first peoples were river people and here is no exception - particularly with the meeting of the Darling and Murray rivers just a few k up the road at Wentworth. The Darling river is called Barka. Barkindji (people of the river) are mainly north along the river from Wentworth. Latje Latje people on the Victorian side of the Murray and Kureinji people on the Gol Gol side. There is a good map here: www.murrayriver.com.au/about-the-murray/murray-river-aboriginals/Wirajuri were a bit further East but covered a fair chunk of NSW. A lot of good people. |
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Post by fat on Jun 7, 2020 1:50:53 GMT 10
I found the Kindle version of Pagans and Christians for less than 17 dollars - seems reasonable (if I can wrestle the device from my lovely wife)
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