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Post by matte on Mar 3, 2021 20:08:27 GMT 10
Alleged rape (correction)...there are questions around the allegation that only a inquiry could answer, there were other people at the debate contest including the two other lads, the event coordinators, bar staff, and then there's the high profile people and friends she talked to about the alleged rape, also the coroner has called on the NSW police to investigate further her death....there is more to be revealed and the police would have investigated further had she been alive...like Shorto's alleged rape, which was found to be a false claim, yet may not be so for Porter. No inquiry can answer the question because the accuser cannot give any testimony. The only testimony available would be from people such as Malcolm Turnbull and his word is not worth anything due to having a political gripe. The only place where the allegation could be tested is in a criminal trial if there is adequate evidence. There isn't. I feel sorry for the woman who made the allegations, as Stellar has said, she was likely mentally unstable and only came out decades on due to that instability. Not all sex that is regretted is rape. They were both teenagers at the time and we'll never know about what actually happened.
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Post by pim on Mar 3, 2021 22:37:43 GMT 10
Stellar and Matt continue to treat it like a lawyer’s debate as the fog of politics descends and shrouds it all. You forget that there is no presumption of innocence in politics. The optics look appalling for Porter and for ScoMo in this shabby situation. As far as Porter is concerned he’s finished whether he or ScoMo realise it yet or not. I’m sure Porter needs time off and the decision to take sick leave is a correct one. So is the decision to see a shrink. These are sensible things for Porter to do. I’m not debating any of that because it’s a no brainer. It’s what’s waiting for him on his return that I’m talking about. It’s not “finished” no matter what ScoMo’s spin, blather and obfuscation would have us believe. If Porter returns to witness protection within Scotty from Marketing’s one man band and joins all the other damaged goods in ScoMo’s Cabinet who are in witness protection then the Morrison government will continue to bleed. If the Porter affair which now encompasses the question mark over his youthful behaviour going through to the revelations on 4 Corners feed into the growing narrative that Scott Morrison runs a government which not only holds accountability and transparency in contempt but it also has the stench of corruption what with the sports rorts affair among other scandals and to top it all it’s a protection racket for misogyny and rape then this is the road to political oblivion.
Short to medium term? Porter is toast and ScoMo will be running a minority government.
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Post by bender on Mar 3, 2021 22:41:20 GMT 10
He denies that any physical interaction took place. This is an impossible situation to solve. I think it is ridiculous to attempt some kind of "inquiry" given all legal avenues are closed. It's just a really big mess with no clear solution. I do agree that allegations without legal evidence should not be grounds for people to abandon their careers. What a can of worms that would be. No-one would be safe in future. p.s. I watched his press conference very closely. He looked shell-shocked. I can't tell if he is telling the truth or not. A lot of people (well actually mainly Porter himself) are saying that if Porter was to step down, or step aside whilst an independent investigation is carried out then it is somehow the death of our legal system and nobody would be safe ever again. What utter and complete bullshit. For the above to be true, one would have to accept that a significant number of complaints made are false. Indeed the opposite would seem to be the case when you look at how few sexual assaults are actually reported to the Police. Secondly Porter seems to believe that to stand aside whilst an investigation takes place somehow leaves him in the parlous position of being guilty unless he can prove himself innocent of a dead persons accusations. Once again that is incorrect, standing aside whilst an investigation takes place means no more or less then that. Mr Porter occupies the highest legal office in the land. Whilst he is the subject of such allegations he should step down for no other reason then to maintain confidence in his office.
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Post by bender on Mar 3, 2021 22:46:22 GMT 10
I also agree with Pim, Porter's dead, he just doesn't have the sense to quit breathing.
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Post by Gort on Mar 3, 2021 22:48:19 GMT 10
Stellar and Matt continue to treat it like a lawyer’s debate as the fog of politics descends and shrouds it all. You forget that there is no presumption of innocence in politics. The optics look appalling for Porter and for ScoMo in this shabby situation. As far as Porter is concerned he’s finished whether he or ScoMo realise it yet or not. I’m sure Porter needs time off and the decision to take sick leave is a correct one. So is the decision to see a shrink. These are sensible things for Porter to do. I’m not debating any of that because it’s a no brainer. It’s what’s waiting for him on his return that I’m talking about. It’s not “finished” no matter what ScoMo’s spin, blather and obfuscation would have us believe. If Porter returns to witness protection within Scotty from Marketing’s one man band and joins all the other damaged goods in ScoMo’s Cabinet who are in witness protection then the Morrison government will continue to bleed. If the Porter affair which now encompasses the question mark over his youthful behaviour going through to the revelations on 4 Corners feed into the growing narrative that Scott Morrison runs a government which not only holds accountability and transparency in contempt but it also has the stench of corruption what with the sports rorts affair among other scandals and to top it all it’s a protection racket for misogyny and rape then this is the road to political oblivion. Short to medium term? Porter is toast and ScoMo will be running a minority government. But it was finished where Bill Shorten faced an accusation of rape and the police decided there was insufficient evidence to lay charges?
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Post by Gort on Mar 3, 2021 22:56:42 GMT 10
He denies that any physical interaction took place. This is an impossible situation to solve. I think it is ridiculous to attempt some kind of "inquiry" given all legal avenues are closed. It's just a really big mess with no clear solution. I do agree that allegations without legal evidence should not be grounds for people to abandon their careers. What a can of worms that would be. No-one would be safe in future. p.s. I watched his press conference very closely. He looked shell-shocked. I can't tell if he is telling the truth or not. A lot of people (well actually mainly Porter himself) are saying that if Porter was to step down, or step aside whilst an independent investigation is carried out then it is somehow the death of our legal system and nobody would be safe ever again. What utter and complete bullshit. For the above to be true, one would have to accept that a significant number of complaints made are false. Indeed the opposite would seem to be the case when you look at how few sexual assaults are actually reported to the Police. Secondly Porter seems to believe that to stand aside whilst an investigation takes place somehow leaves him in the parlous position of being guilty unless he can prove himself innocent of a dead persons accusations. Once again that is incorrect, standing aside whilst an investigation takes place means no more or less then that. Mr Porter occupies the highest legal office in the land. Whilst he is the subject of such allegations he should step down for no other reason then to maintain confidence in his office. When I was first in teachers college back in the 1970's we were told to never be alone with any student ever. It was common for false claims to be made against teachers.
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Post by bender on Mar 3, 2021 23:32:09 GMT 10
It was common for false claims to be made about teachers?
Really? Given what we've learned over the last few years it would appear that there probably should have been more claims.
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Post by Gort on Mar 3, 2021 23:35:55 GMT 10
It was common for false claims to be made about teachers? Really? Given what we've learned over the last few years it would appear that there probably should have been more claims. Yes, it was Victorian Education Department policy to avoid being alone with any student. Always be visible to others, preferably other staff. Have you ever wondered why classrooms are wall-to-wall glass? There could be any reason or none for accusations to be made. e.g. reprimanding someone in class, giving a C- instead of a B+ could be motivation for a revenge claim, or no reason at all. It was drummed into us.
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Post by bender on Mar 4, 2021 0:20:43 GMT 10
How many false complaints are you personally aware of Gort?
I went to school in the 70's and the classrooms were certainly not wall to wall glass, in fact from memory, most classrooms had those opaque wire reinforced glass louvres on the windows.
And whether it was drummed into teachers to not be alone with kids or not, given the number of proven allegations of teachers sexually abusing their students, the education department would have been better served drumming it into the kids not to be alone with teachers rather then the other way around.
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Post by ponto on Mar 4, 2021 5:05:30 GMT 10
I wouldn't feel sorry for Porter given his track record of attacking ABC and News Corp journalist with the intent of vindictive destroying careers for reporting truth, also he was the one to introduce the notorious death causing debt recovery scheme while social services minister, and the cashless welfare card that caused hardship for poor people,.. cuts to the welfare system kicking old people in the nuts, then there his attacks on Unions restricting activity so to lower workers wages with work choices like policies, then there's Porter skipping the final sittings of the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse in order to attend a cricket match with John Howard, focused on security did little to address the high incarceration rates of the Aboriginal people while family law went down the plug hole, ...wanting to hold a royal commission into why business will no longer invest in coal, rubber stamping tax payers for rort's, then the calling on social media platforms to be seen as publishers for Murdoch's benefit, attempts to block environmental groups from calling on boycotts of companies connected to the coal industry, repealing the medevac laws, and attempting to have 'GetUp' registered as an arm of the Labor party....to name a few things under his ministries.
In short the bloke is a callous nasty arse and given his aggressive ambitious personality that has seen 2 marriages fail while snogging a staffer at a piss up he goes all boo hoo sorry me I am accused of rape my career is fucked...given his personality and little empathy for others I wouldn't be surprised if he did not rape the girl who later in life committed suicide trying to get somewhere with the allegation.
Parliamentarians who put the parties interest before public interest shouldn't be in parliament regardless of the rape case.
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Post by Stellar on Mar 4, 2021 7:12:19 GMT 10
Obviously if you want to educate your kids proper like...then don't send em to private schools learnt to be misogynistic thugs. I object to that crass statement Ponto! My father went to St Leonards Grammar and Knox College ... and I went to SCEGGS Redlands. And we managed to live exemplary lives. Those schools had high standards and we were expected to live up to them. The problem is kids are more sexually active these days. You only have to look at the rubbish they are exposed to on TV and movies to understand there is no innocence in the world today.
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Post by ponto on Mar 4, 2021 8:16:48 GMT 10
Hardly crass when its been widely reported on the misogynistic and chauvinistic behaviour of elite private school boys,...there are of course exceptions as not all of these kids have poor social behaviour attitudes to girls, women and the down and out ...none the less there is a underlying problem these schools have.
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Post by Stellar on Mar 4, 2021 8:48:34 GMT 10
I think it's more a parenting problem. A lot of kids are out of control these days. Just watch the news every night for evidence! Kids of 9 and 11 attacking adults, stealing their cars and so on. When they're caught by police, it's the parents who should be in the dock with their kids. Somebody has to take responsibility.
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Post by caskur on Mar 4, 2021 9:00:04 GMT 10
rapists are habitual.... there will be others who were groped by Porter.... When they feel brave enough, hopefully they will step forward.
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Post by Gort on Mar 4, 2021 10:35:49 GMT 10
How many false complaints are you personally aware of Gort? ... None. Yet we were instructed very clearly to never be alone with a student and told that false claims were common. Perhaps I was lucky to have never personally been aware of any false claims. I was not in the teaching profession for very long though - moving into computing where I spent most of my working life.
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Post by Gort on Mar 4, 2021 11:28:39 GMT 10
Ouch.
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Post by ponto on Mar 4, 2021 13:01:13 GMT 10
I'd say kids social behaviour today is no better or worse than say back in the 60's and 70's....today they have computers in the 70's it was basic pocket calculators.
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Post by pim on Mar 4, 2021 13:49:04 GMT 10
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Post by ponto on Mar 4, 2021 16:05:25 GMT 10
Elitist schooling creates individualism and a severe lack of empathy for others...I'd say very likely Reynolds called Higgins a 'lying cow'... and I'd say also she gave high references to the sacked male rapist staffer for his now highfaluting job.
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Post by bender on Mar 4, 2021 16:10:08 GMT 10
How many false complaints are you personally aware of Gort? ... None. Yet we were instructed very clearly to never be alone with a student and told that false claims were common. Perhaps I was lucky to have never personally been aware of any false claims. I was not in the teaching profession for very long though - moving into computing where I spent most of my working life. Okay, so you've never actually become aware of a false complaint of sexual assault being made against a teacher by a student. Yet at the same time you were told (and presumably believe given your use of this anecdote here) that it is common. Do you see where I'm going with this? Now if you were told that Teachers who commit sexual offences against their students were common, you'd believe it because there's clear evidence that it is a common offence. We just had a Royal Commission into such matters that displayed just how appallingly common it is. That same Royal Commission showed beyond any doubt that a common reaction from School Administrators to such claims by students was to disbelieve them. I'm using common as a descriptor because it can be shown it was common. You may have been told that false claims were common but here you are at least 40 years since you were given said advice, surely you must have questioned that claim given that you've never become personally aware of it happening ever. It may be past time that you re-examined your beliefs in this matter. Particularly when such a belief obviously leaves you predisposed to disbelieving a claim of sexual assault. In a larger sense this goes to Scomo's statement that it wasn't until his wife asked him how he'd feel if it happened to one of their daughters. There's an inability there to actually empathise, to understand. It's a very anecdotal type of response that shows he simply cannot imagine how terrible it would be to be young, be new in a job and then be sexually assaulted by a co-worker. He needs to put a bit of distance there, sure it's horrible but it's at arms length so it allows him to be a man, to respond as the protector. How would he feel if it had been him though? And we see this very clearly with the case of the allegation of rape made against Attorney General Christian Porter. For Morrison he can imagine himself in Porter's shoes being accused of a horrendous crime in his past, so it becomes very easy to empathise, to simply believe Porter when Porter says that it didn't happen. But to come full circle in this, what if the woman in this case was his daughter who alleged that she had been anally raped by a school colleague at the age of 16? If it was his daughter that made that allegation would it be so easy for him to accept the accused words that "it didn't happen"?
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Post by ponto on Mar 4, 2021 16:31:19 GMT 10
And why the need for an inquiry into the matter.....rape cannot be unseen or unheard...people want to know.
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Post by Gort on Mar 5, 2021 22:07:00 GMT 10
Woman drew on counselling before recounting alleged rapeBy David Crowe March 5, 2021 — 7.36pm The woman who accused Attorney-General Christian Porter of rape drew on counselling that she said helped to “resurface” a trauma that she said she had known about for years. The woman’s account of the alleged rape includes her experience of seeking help from psychiatrists and others in 2019, the same time she told friends about the events. Attorney-General Christian Porter denies all allegations raised against him.CREDIT:TREVOR COLLENS But her account makes clear her belief that she “always” remembered the alleged rape and that the help she sought later added to her understanding. The woman alleged the rape took place in Sydney in January 1988 and took her claim to NSW Police in February last year, but the investigation was suspended in June when she took her own life. NSW Police confirmed this week the investigation was closed. Mr Porter has denied the accusation – saying “it just didn’t happen” – and said he intended to remain in his job. But the government is facing calls from Labor, the Greens and crossbenchers for an inquiry into the matter, raising questions about whether such an inquiry would ever reveal a lengthy personal statement the woman wrote. “I have always remembered these things,” she wrote of her allegation that Mr Porter raped her at a college at the University of Sydney. “I had a better understanding of these memories, and only really understood them, once my Sydney based psychologist (who specialises in counselling sexual assault survivors) referred me to The Body Keeps Score: Brain, Mind and Body in the Healing of Trauma in September 2019. “I had not previously heard of it, nor had I read it.” The book was written by Bessel Van Der Kolk, a psychiatrist at Harvard Medical School before he founded the Trauma Centre in Massachusetts, which he led for 35 years. The woman described Dr Van Der Kolk’s book as part of the process in her recounting the allegations. “Bessel Van Der Kolk explains that, for survivors of torture and trauma (whether physical, psychological and/or sexual) our bodies will store traumatic events and only allow them to resurface when our minds are able to examine them, usually several decades later,” she wrote. “My Adelaide-based psychiatrist confirmed that these are ‘somatic memories’ (i.e. lodged in the body rather than the brain, although the mind can access them) in an appointment in late 2019.” The woman also wrote that her account was based on “near contemporaneous” notes of the rape based on information from 1989, 1991 and 1992. Her written account includes several appendices with what she describes as details from the time of the alleged rape. The document was sent with an anonymous letter to Liberal backbencher Celia Hammond on Wednesday, February 24, and she referred the claims to the Australian Federal Police and the Prime Minister’s Office. Prime Minister Scott Morrison raised the accusations with Mr Porter that Wednesday night but neither of them read the document. Dr Van der Kolk’s book was a New York Times best-seller and the Trauma Centre trained thousands of mental health professionals, but his approach has been the subject of dispute. The New York Times described him as a leading defender of repressed-memory therapy during the 1990s, when he was an expert witness in sexual abuse cases and argued that victims could suppress all memory of that trauma until recalling it many years later. Richard McNally, the Professor of Psychology at Harvard University, rejected the case for repressed memory in his 2005 book, Remembering Trauma. www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/woman-drew-on-counselling-before-recounting-alleged-rape-20210305-p578at.htmlIn other words - she was a nut-job.
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Post by pim on Mar 5, 2021 22:15:15 GMT 10
A “nut job” huh! The quality of your insights never fails to disgust impress the board, Trickles.
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Post by Gort on Mar 5, 2021 22:16:53 GMT 10
All that "repressed memory" stuff is bullshit. Things are looking better for Porter now that we know about that. The woman who accused Christian Porter of raping her in 1988 believed they had a long-term future despite the alleged attack.
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Post by pim on Mar 5, 2021 22:53:46 GMT 10
“Things are looking better for Porter” ... as I’ve just said Trickles, the quality of your insights never fails to disgust impress the board.
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