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Post by Occam's Spork on Oct 11, 2019 3:18:53 GMT 10
Existence, in the ancient world, was not described by the same standards we use today.
People in the ancient world believed something existed not by its material properties, but by virtue of its function in an ordered system.
Ergo, something could be manifested physically but still not 'exist', if it had not become functional.
When reading Genesis 1 it's important to read it from the cultural background it was written from.
The Hebrew context in Genesis 1:1 should be translated as 'When', or "...When God created the Heavens and the Earth", which makes it a dependent clause, and implies our beginning wasn't THE beginning.
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Post by pim on Oct 11, 2019 5:45:20 GMT 10
Existence, in the ancient world, was not described by the same standards we use today. People in the ancient world believed something existed not by its material properties, but by virtue of its function in an ordered system. Ergo, something could be manifested physically but still not 'exist', if it had not become functional. I’m hard pressed to think of something that manifests itself physically but has no function. An amoeba can be said to have a function. So could a pebble on the ground. But I take your point which is the relationship between meaning and culture and I agree. I can’t speak for the original Hebrew text of Genesis 1.1 but, while acknowledging that it’s a translation, the KJV doesn’t have it as a subordinate clause (or dependent clause as you put it - each to his own) but as a principal clause: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” No “when”. The inclusion of “when” changes both the grammar and the meaning of Genesis 1.1. As you say, it makes it a subordinate/dependent clause. Biblical exegesis is like this isn’t it - “how many angels can dance on a pinhead?” Good fun! But at the same time the difference that you point to between the original Hebrew text and the KJV raises an important question: given the seminal role and importance of the KJV as the definitive English language version of the Bible for the past 400+ years, why such a significant departure from the original Hebrew? And not just the KJV. The Luther Bible in German has the same cultural importance as the definitive Bible in the German-speaking world (over 100 million people if you count Germany and Austria as one speech community) and it doesn’t have Genesis 1.1 as a dependent/subordinate clause either: Im Anfange schuf Gott Himmel und Erde which translates into English exactly the same as the KJV. Mark you Martin Luther’s translation was from the original into German and its importance in standardising the German language can’t be overstated. But it’s the same departure from the original Hebrew text as.the KJV. What’s going on? Meanwhile the angels continue dancing on their pinheads  |
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Post by KTJ on Oct 11, 2019 7:32:07 GMT 10
Existence, in the ancient world, was not described by the same standards we use today. People in the ancient world believed something existed not by its material properties, but by virtue of its function in an ordered system. Ergo, something could be manifested physically but still not 'exist', if it had not become functional. When reading Genesis 1 it's important to read it from the cultural background it was written from. The Hebrew context in Genesis 1:1 should be translated as 'When', or "...When God created the Heavens and the Earth", which makes it a dependent clause, and implies our beginning wasn't THE beginning. Yes, people in the ancient world didn't have the benefit of scientific knowledge we have in the 21st century, so they invented gods inside their minds. Then they worshiped those gods, even though there has never been any proof that those gods were/are anything more than a delusion inside the mind of human beings. Sadly, many humans are still flawed in the 21st century and therefore blindly believe the god delusion inside their mind is a real god. We should pity such weak-minded individuals for being so backwards-looking and simple. |
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Post by pim on Oct 11, 2019 7:35:51 GMT 10
As usual Prickles inserts himself into the thread not to contribute anything positive to the conversation, but to troll. Put him on ignore and carry on.
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Post by Occam's Spork on Oct 11, 2019 8:26:17 GMT 10
Existence, in the ancient world, was not described by the same standards we use today. People in the ancient world believed something existed not by its material properties, but by virtue of its function in an ordered system. Ergo, something could be manifested physically but still not 'exist', if it had not become functional. When reading Genesis 1 it's important to read it from the cultural background it was written from. The Hebrew context in Genesis 1:1 should be translated as 'When', or "...When God created the Heavens and the Earth", which makes it a dependent clause, and implies our beginning wasn't THE beginning. Yes, people in the ancient world didn't have the benefit of scientific knowledge we have in the 21st century, so they invented gods inside their minds. Then they worshiped those gods, even though there has never been any proof that those gods were/are anything more than a delusion inside the mind of human beings. Sadly, many humans are still flawed in the 21st century and therefore blindly believe the god delusion inside their mind is a real god. We should pity such weak-minded individuals for being so backwards-looking and simple. Those 'ignorant' bronze age people accomplished inventing beer, electroplating, solar power, invented batteries, created language, understood mathematic concepts such as pi, they built pyramids, established a code of ethics, etc... In contrast, what contribution did you specifically accomplish in your lifetime, oh "enlightened (sic) scientific one"? Wait... I know this: You make everyone around you feel smart, right?.  |
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Post by KTJ on Oct 11, 2019 8:36:18 GMT 10
I have yet to see you post any proof of the real existence of your god other than a blind faith he/she/it exists.
Carry on with your ignorance……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
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Post by Occam's Spork on Oct 11, 2019 8:44:31 GMT 10
I have yet to see you post any proof of the real existence of your god other than a blind faith he/she/it exists. Carry on with your ignorance…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… Yes... 'Cause there is nothing like having a goal, achieving that goal, and being told that it isn't good enough. I'll take a hard pass at your goalpost moving tactic, there. I have better things to be doing than indulging a dullard. |
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Post by Occam's Spork on Oct 11, 2019 11:00:07 GMT 10
Do you know what I like most about you, KTJ? You make me feel smart.  |
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Post by KTJ on Oct 11, 2019 11:17:00 GMT 10
Do you know what I like most about you, KTJ? You make me feel smart. In other words, you have extremely low standards for yourself if you are that dumb that you cannot recognise superiority over yourself. |
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Post by Occam's Spork on Oct 11, 2019 22:06:59 GMT 10
Do you know what I like most about you, KTJ? You make me feel smart. In other words, you have extremely low standards for yourself if you are that dumb that you cannot recognise superiority over yourself.  ...Have you ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect? It proposes that highly intelligent people underestimate their intelligence, and people of low intelligence tend to overestimate theirs. This is one brilliant shining example of that very scenario. For me, you've only proven how the most ignorant people can be the most confident in their opinion. Help to me understand you better, KTJ: --Did your brain physically endure a trauma, or has it just atrophied? -Which is it? |
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Post by KTJ on Oct 12, 2019 6:37:42 GMT 10
Oh dear, the religious troll with the stained-glass-window mind is stalking me again.
As soon as I saw that notification icon, I KNEW it had to be Sporky.
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Post by pim on Oct 12, 2019 10:00:40 GMT 10
Rubbish Prickles. Your obsession with Trump makes you adopt his method which is to deflect accusations against him of outrageous behaviour (in your case trolling) by pretending that he's the victim and not the perpetrator. You fool nobody.
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Post by KTJ on Oct 12, 2019 11:21:33 GMT 10
Far out!!
What has Trump got to do with a thread titled “Our Flawed Western View” posted to Newstalkback1?!?!?!?
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Post by pim on Oct 12, 2019 13:07:13 GMT 10
Notice gentle reader how he now feigns wounded innocence and ignorance. If you can't join the dots Prickles then you're beyond help.
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Post by KTJ on Oct 12, 2019 16:09:34 GMT 10
You are the person who dragged Trump into this thread.
So stop playing the innocence act.
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Post by pim on Oct 12, 2019 22:35:24 GMT 10
*sigh* He can't help himself.
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Post by KTJ on Oct 13, 2019 4:56:28 GMT 10
*sigh* He can't help himself from posting *sigh* He can't help himself.
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Post by fat on Oct 14, 2019 23:32:57 GMT 10
I am not sure how to regain the original formatting so I post a link to the interlinear Hebrew/English. Remember that it is read from right to left. biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/1.htmNot sure if it helps or confuses. |
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Post by Occam's Spork on Oct 14, 2019 23:57:41 GMT 10
Far out!! What has Trump got to do with a thread titled “Our Flawed Western View” posted to Newstalkback1?!?!?!? Techinally, your post didn't really add anything to the thread either... |
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Post by Occam's Spork on Oct 14, 2019 23:59:04 GMT 10
Oh dear, the religious troll with the stained-glass-window mind is stalking me again. As soon as I saw that notification icon, I KNEW it had to be Sporky. You appear on MY thread, and accuse ME of stalking YOU? lol ...Do you ever tire of being wrong? |
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Post by KTJ on Oct 15, 2019 7:32:33 GMT 10
Yet more notifications waiting for me because Sporky posted something stupid but also quoted me in the process.
Sporky is like one of those annoying blowflies that's always buzzing around at particular times of the year.
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Post by KTJ on Oct 15, 2019 7:34:36 GMT 10
Oh dear, the religious troll with the stained-glass-window mind is stalking me again. As soon as I saw that notification icon, I KNEW it had to be Sporky. You appear on MY thread, and accuse ME of stalking YOU? lol ...Do you ever tire of being wrong? I stand on my own two feet instead of being blindly sucked in by a bullshit book written by ancient savages while leaning on the crutch of religion and listening to a god delusion inside one's mind. |
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Post by pim on Oct 15, 2019 7:49:39 GMT 10
*ignore*
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Post by Occam's Spork on Oct 15, 2019 23:05:05 GMT 10
You appear on MY thread, and accuse ME of stalking YOU? lol ...Do you ever tire of being wrong? I stand on my own two feet instead of being blindly sucked in by a bullshit book written by ancient savages while leaning on the crutch of religion and listening to a god delusion inside one's mind. This explains A LOT. How did you ever learn a thing in school? Universities were founded by the so-called 'ancient savages', theistic, and leaning on achieved texts. Your ignorance is truly astounding, KTJ. |
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Post by Occam's Spork on Oct 15, 2019 23:08:54 GMT 10
Yet more notifications waiting for me because Sporky posted something stupid but also quoted me in the process. Sporky is like one of those annoying blowflies that's always buzzing around at particular times of the year. And I suppose that would make you the unflushable turd that attracts me? |
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