|
|
Post by KTJ on Jul 3, 2019 10:06:09 GMT 10
I would agree the actual early church started 2000yrs ago, my use of the word was for lack of a better one. So that particular brand of bullshit cultism started 2,000 years ago, eh? Merely one of many bullshit religious cults which have existed ever since primitive man first decided he needed the crutch of religion to lean on. |
|
|
|
Post by pim on Jul 3, 2019 13:09:59 GMT 10
Really? So the pre-Christian spirituality of the indigenous Maori was worthless? Or the Dreamtime spirituality of Australia's First People which continues to define their relationship to the land and to each other is just so much useless junk? Cultural baggage that should be shucked off as of no value? You know what the most devastating critique of whitefellas is that indigenous Australians have ever made? "Whitefella got no Dreaming". That is a savage and deeply insightful indictment of the whitefella exploitative view of the land they stole from the First People. In a devastatingly pithy way those four words, steeped in the wisdom of Dreamtime spirituality, sum up the whitefella view of land-as-commodity. They've got us to rights. They're not fools. They've nailed it, with the Dreamtime as the hammer. And you dismiss it as just another one of the bullshit religious cults which have existed ever since primitive man first decided he needed the crutch of religion to lean on.? This kiwi fella got no Dreamin' 
|
|
|
|
Post by pim on Jul 3, 2019 13:40:47 GMT 10
Oh OK the trolls have arrived ...  Occam, lets do a workaround. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2019 6:02:17 GMT 10
Pim, Occam
I am enjoying this discussion!
Carry on, chaps!
|
|
|
|
Post by pim on Jul 4, 2019 9:15:01 GMT 10
Grim I’ve always been intrigued by the Cathars. I had no idea they’d been so influential during the Middle Ages in southern France and northern Italy until I travelled through Albi which was the French explorer La Perouse’s home town. Quite by chance I discovered the local church. Here it is:  More a fortress than a church. That’s the outside. Now step inside:  The pic doesn’t do it justice. The church is St Cecilia in Albi. Google it and go to Images. It was then that I twigged: Albi - Albigensian - Albigensian heresy. These were the Cathars and the movement had been based here between the 12th to the 14th century but had spread throughout southern France and northern Italy. Apparently they were a throwback to the Gnostics of early Christianity. But not just the Gnostics. Ever wondered why Eastern Rite Christianity calls itself “Orthodox”? The word means “correct teaching” which is very revealing because it implies that they’re right and therefore everyone else is wrong. It goes back to those 300 years between when Constantine made Christianity legal in the Edict of Milan in 310 AD and the rise of Islam in the 600s. During that 300 year interval when Christianity dominated the whole of the Mediterranean - and that included Turkey, and all of those parts of the Middle East and North Africa that are now Muslim - the Roman authorities who were now based in Constantinople used the legions to establish order and uniformity among populations calling themselves Christian. You have to understand that during the 300 years between the time of Christ and when Constantine made Christianity “official” and legal, Christianity had existed in a hostile environment so its adherents had been scattered and furtive. Especially during the times when they were being persecuted and fed to the lions. Consequently during those times there was not one monolithic Christianity but lots of “Christianities”. There was no “set” view of the nature of Christ. Was he God? Man? Bit of both? The Trinitarian concept of God didn’t come until centuries later. We call the subject of the nature of Christ “Christology”. So when Constantine legalised Christianity in 310 and Theodosius declared it the official religion of the Roman Empire in 380 they did these things more as a matter of state policy than theology. The Roman Empire was crumbling and they turned to Christianity as a unifying force. What happened was that Christianity took over. The Pope is the true successor to the Roman Emperors. The next task was to impose some order on this new state religion. Hence “Orthodoxy”! Imposed by the Roman legions at the point of spears and swords if necessary! What confronted the Roman authorities was a welter of different Christianities: Monophysites, Arians, Manichaeans, Gnostics ... all put down in several bloodbaths and “Orthodoxy” imposed. Read the Nicene Creed. Not as a prayer but as a government White Paper. A policy document stating core Christian beliefs. Differ from that and you’re outside the “Orthodoxy” and liable to be skewered. The Cathars were a throwback to those times and the Popes reacted to the Cathars in exactly the same way that the Roman Emperors reacted to the Gnostics and other dissidents: they sent in the troops and great was the slaughter. The very fact that we know so little about the Cathars today shows how grimly successful the crusaders were in destroying not just the people but every vestige of them: their buildings and especially their writings. Now put that church in Albi on your “must see” list! |
|
|
|
Post by KTJ on Jul 4, 2019 12:40:42 GMT 10
Really? So the pre-Christian spirituality of the indigenous Maori was worthless? Or the Dreamtime spirituality of Australia's First People which continues to define their relationship to the land and to each other is just so much useless junk? Cultural baggage that should be shucked off as of no value? You know what the most devastating critique of whitefellas is that indigenous Australians have ever made? "Whitefella got no Dreaming". That is a savage and deeply insightful indictment of the whitefella exploitative view of the land they stole from the First People. In a devastatingly pithy way those four words, steeped in the wisdom of Dreamtime spirituality, sum up the whitefella view of land-as-commodity. They've got us to rights. They're not fools. They've nailed it, with the Dreamtime as the hammer. And you dismiss it as just another one of the bullshit religious cults which have existed ever since primitive man first decided he needed the crutch of religion to lean on.? This kiwi fella got no Dreamin' One can make excuses for ignorant people in the past. After all, they were ignorant ages. But we are now living in the 21st century where knowlege has superceded the need for all that hocus-pocus clap-trap and religious piffle. |
|
|
|
Post by pim on Jul 4, 2019 13:58:39 GMT 10
And we're wiser, more enlightened and more tolerant of difference, right? And you're the standout example of this enhanced enlightenment, wisdom and tolerance? Right!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Occam's Spork on Jul 5, 2019 0:32:15 GMT 10
Grim I’ve always been intrigued by the Cathars. The Cathars were the catalyst for the Inquisition. |
|
|
|
Post by Occam's Spork on Jul 5, 2019 0:33:27 GMT 10
Really? So the pre-Christian spirituality of the indigenous Maori was worthless? Or the Dreamtime spirituality of Australia's First People which continues to define their relationship to the land and to each other is just so much useless junk? Cultural baggage that should be shucked off as of no value? You know what the most devastating critique of whitefellas is that indigenous Australians have ever made? "Whitefella got no Dreaming". That is a savage and deeply insightful indictment of the whitefella exploitative view of the land they stole from the First People. In a devastatingly pithy way those four words, steeped in the wisdom of Dreamtime spirituality, sum up the whitefella view of land-as-commodity. They've got us to rights. They're not fools. They've nailed it, with the Dreamtime as the hammer. And you dismiss it as just another one of the bullshit religious cults which have existed ever since primitive man first decided he needed the crutch of religion to lean on.? This kiwi fella got no Dreamin' One can make excuses for ignorant people in the past. After all, they were ignorant ages. But we are now living in the 21st century where knowlege has superceded the need for all that hocus-pocus clap-trap and religious piffle. Pardon me, but your ignorance is showing, mister. Atheism, and godlessness existed in the past too. |
|
|
|
Post by fat on Jul 6, 2019 0:18:55 GMT 10
Magnificent church pim
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2019 6:10:41 GMT 10
Grim I’ve always been intrigued by the Cathars. The Cathars were the catalyst for the Inquisition. Thanks for that bit of history Pim. I knew of the Cathars from some years back, and the massacre/purge what ever name you wish to put to the cull. Yet so little known about them More proof that the victors write the history. As an adjunct to my last sentence (and seriously off topic, sorry), look into the story of Sir (George) Hubert Wilkins Maybe not heard of him? Born in rural South Australia in 1888, he went on to become an explorer of significant note - pioneering aviator - first person to visit both north and south poles - first person to film a battle scene from the air - shot and crashed multiple times and survived - was the founder of the idea of a global weather data network for more reliable forecasting - Knighted and celebrated for his achievements in both the UK an US Yet he barely gets a mention here at home. Why? Because in the 1920s he dared to challenge Government policy on indigenous affairs (having actually been out to witness the impact on their lives himself) That's it. Poof. Gone from history So instead, we are left to 'celebrate' two spectacularly unsuccessful (mis)adveturers, Burke and Wills (who the fuck takes a writing desk on a 3,500 km journey?) Sorry, that was a serious diversion! Carry on, Chaps! |
|
|
|
Post by pim on Jul 6, 2019 7:52:43 GMT 10
Talking about rewriting history, d’you reckon this guy will succeed? This is from the Guardian ...
That was naughty of me because it opens the door to Prickles (that’s KTJ - the reference is to his persistent bizarre priapism: he’s obsessed with pricks!) turning this thread into a Trump fest.
But before he does let me try to take the thread back to the topic: multiverse theory. If the universe isn’t “the” universe but just “a” common garden variety universe in an infinity of universes then for an atheist this just deepens the absurdity of it all. According to the multiverse theory each universe in the multiverse is characterised by its own laws of physics and space/time. There’s no cosmic law that states that every Big Bang that produces a universe will be subject to the same Newtonian laws of physics and space/time. Whatever is possible is probably happening somewhere. The “absurdity” arises from its lack of purpose. Religious faith is an attempt to ascribe some sort of meaning to it all. Forget the silly attempts by biblical literalists at treating the Book of Genesis as a factual historical/scientific account of how the universe came to be. They miss the point just as completely as the two phony “atheists” who troll this board miss the point. And what is the point? The point is in Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.. The biblical explanation for the universe is that it is moral. It has a purpose. If you’re an atheist you must reject Gen 1:31 outright. The logic of the atheist position demands nothing less. If you’re an atheist you must hold that the universe has no purpose and therefore neither do we. To me that’s the nub of the divide between the biblical and the atheist positions: the moral universe v the absurd universe. Now if the universe is just one universe in an infinity of universes each with its own laws of physics operating in its own space/time then that just compounds the absurdity. That doesn’t invalidate the atheist position. It’s a perfectly respectable position to hold. But it does deepen the challenge: how do you deal with so much diversity and all to no purpose? Sisyphus’ absurd task ends up being more absurd. An atheist worth his salt has to argue that happiness is possible in Sisyphus’ situation.I don’t know how biblical morality deals with it either but I’m sure they’d give it a red hot go!
|
|
|
|
Post by KTJ on Jul 6, 2019 11:07:29 GMT 10
Not as grand as this one… (click on the image to download the 8000-pixel-wide original photograph)
|
|
|
|
Post by KTJ on Jul 6, 2019 11:13:52 GMT 10
BTW … the organ in that photograph in the immediate previous post is the largest in France. But it was built by a Dutch organ builder. (click on the photograph to learn more about the instrument from the builder's website)
|
|
|
|
Post by fat on Jul 12, 2019 0:12:34 GMT 10
Also magnificent KTJ.
|
|
