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Post by pim on Feb 14, 2013 17:54:45 GMT 10
They used to be so popular a couple of generations ago. In fact in the 1950s they were standard fare. It wasn't just down to John Wayne, although he was unquestionably king of the genre. But there was Gary Cooper, Robert Mitchum, Charles Bronson ( a later generation), Clint Eastwood and I seem to recall Jack Nicholson featured in the odd western movie early in his career.
What I hadn't realised is that McCarthyist politics heavily affected the Western genre in the 1950s. Take High Noon with Gary Cooper. I've seen it but it was long ago. Gary Cooper plays the lone lawman who finds himself up against a powerful gang of outlaws. The local townsfolk are more than happy to put the Gary Cooper character into the firing line but when he seeks their support they all melt away leaving him to face the bad guys alone. Even his bride forsakes him. Who played the bride? Was it Deborah Kerr? I can't recall. Someone of that era in any case. Hence the song Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darlin'. In fact I think the song is the most memorable thing to come out of the movie.
What I was surprised to learn is that High Noon was interpreted in its day as a left wing allegory of the Cold War. My memories of it aren't clear or detailed enough to explain the why's or wherefores of that. Beats me what's "left wing" about High Noon! But apparently John Wayne hated and loathed the movie and he starred in what is seen by film historians as the Great Response to High Noon and that is Rio Bravo. John Wayne didn't produce or direct Rio Bravo. He took the lead role which was, of course, the sherrif who has to face a bunch of outlaws who hold the law in contempt and have him marked down for annihilation. Just like in High Noon the sherrif in Rio Bravo finds himself outnumbered and outgunned (but prevails anyway - this is John Wayne!) but in sharp contrast to High Noon nobly refuses offers of help from ordinary citizens. I can see why it's an "anti lefty" movie because it's vintage American individualism: an individual who breaks all the rules and triumphs against overwhelming odds.
The hell with the politics! Of the two movies, Rio Bravo is first rate and John Wayne is at his drawling Wild West-with-a-whimsical-touch best. I'd never connected the two movies before and I'd never realised that RB is a direct reaction to HN. See them both together, but my advice is see High Noon first because Rio Bravo is a much better movie.
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Post by pim on Feb 14, 2013 17:55:11 GMT 10
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Post by pim on Feb 14, 2013 17:59:16 GMT 10
 Grace Kelly plays the lead female so that dates it!! |
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Post by jody on Feb 14, 2013 18:23:20 GMT 10
Not really into westerns.....Dances With Wolves is about as good as it gets for me. I have never been a fan of what they do to horses in those movies.  |
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Post by pim on Feb 15, 2013 11:28:17 GMT 10
I like Dances with Wolves too. But the old John Wayne-style western with its b & w (and they often were in b & w - High Noon is in b & w) good guys vs bad guys reductionism were good fun in their way. Certainly as primary school aged kids in the 1950s you'd get the "Saturday Matinee" down at the local art deco "fleahouse", and on the programme you'd have back-to-back b & w Westerns with an Intermission and a Tom & Jerry cartoon. It would be full of kids and none of us had any idea about dispossession of Native American lands by whitefellas (KTJ, please STFU, we don't need another c & p or a mantra) or any such issues and neither did we care. None of us, living in the Manning River area near Taree as we did, saw the poignancy of the reality of Purfleet - an Aboriginal community on the other side o the river from Taree. We even called it, unblushingly, a "reservation". It was where the "blacks" lived and none of us primary school kids could see the connection between the reality and the history behind a place like Purfleet, and what was unfolding on the screen for our entertainment. And how could it have been otherwise. We were only little kids.
Nope! As far as we were concerned it was Cowboys vs Injuns and we identified with the Cowboys. So when a war party of "Injuns" showed up on the screen the kids in the theatre would leap to their feet and blaze away with imaginary Colt 45's. "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" and the only good Injun was a dead Injun. Maybe Tonto was the exception. He knew his place which was to be "faithful" and call the Lone Ranger "Kimo Sabe". That was being a good "Injun". We did allow for that bit of flexibility: the odd "good Injun" was OK as long as there weren't too many of 'em!
What I've come to understand only recently is that the reason for this b & w good guys vs bad guys moral reductionism was the witch hunts of the McCarthy Era in the US. Now that's interesting!
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Post by pim on Feb 15, 2013 12:11:42 GMT 10
Buzz do you mean the 2010 remake of True Grit with Jeff Bridges in the role of Rooster Cogburn, or the 1969 movie with John Wayne as Cogburn? Ah, yes! Sorry! I'd not noticed that you'd typed "Latest True Grit". While the 2010 remake is good, John Wayne won an Academy Award for his role as Cogburn in the original 1969 movie which I think is a true classic of the genre.
I have the 1993 Tombstone in my DVD collection. And a rootin' tootin' blast-the-heads-off'n-the-bad-guys movie it is. Doc Holliday had the best lines:
"I'm your huckleberry"
"I have not begun to defile myself" ... and many more.
But the best individual line is from the character Josephine Marcus who arrives in Tombstone on the stagecoach with the movie's Oscar Wilde character "Mr Fabian". Jospehine looks at Wyatt Earp and asks "Mr Fabian" who the "tall drink of water" is. "Mr Fabian answers: My darling, you've cast your gaze upon the quintessential frontier type. Note the lean silhouette. Eyes closed by the sun, yet sharp as a hawk. He has the look of both predator and prey.. To which Josephine adjusts her parasol, gazes appraisingly with lovely eyes upon Wyatt Earp and says simply: I want one!. She gets him too!
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Post by pim on Feb 15, 2013 16:17:44 GMT 10
Buzz do you agree that Tombstone is a type of American "Three Musketeers" with Doc Holliday playing the role of D'Artagnan?
As an aside, there's a French singer (more a crooner) called Jean-Philippe Smet who is very popular in the Francophone world. A type of French "John Farnham". Anyway, Smet took on the stage name of Johnny Hallyday. Try saying it with a French accent. The French think it sounds "cool". To the surprise and disappointment of the French-speaking world, "Johnny Hallyday" tried out a tour in the United States and he bombed. I mean it was an utter and dismal failure. He appealed to the Americans not at all and he played to venues that were empty of people. The French asked "Mais pourquoi??" After all, Maurice Chevalier had been very successful in the US as a singer, trading on his image as typically "French". So it wasn't as if being French was always going to be a disadvantage. So what was it that the Americans didn't like? Apparently it was his stage name: Johnny Hallyday. In the Wyatt Earp story "Doc" Holliday's real name was John Holliday. And here comes this French guy thinking he can pass himself off as a type of "Doc" Holliday? Who does he think he's kidding!! The guy would have been better off going under his French name.
Back to western movies: I think we'll have to agree to disagree on "True Grit". I have to admit I've always liked the Duke not in spite of his politics but because of his politics. What you saw was what you got. Ever see John Wayne in The Alamo? He played Davy Crockett: the most iconic American frontiersman in the most iconic American battle. Every conservative American cliché is in that movie. I love it. It was financed, apparently, by John Wayne himself and figured in Ronald Reagan's election advertising. There's a scene in that movie where John Wayne, as Davy Crockett, gives the clearest "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" speech. It's gone down in film history as the clearest statement on John Wayne's politics. I can't help being fond of the Duke.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2013 8:42:51 GMT 10
Nope! As far as we were concerned it was Cowboys vs Injuns and we identified with the Cowboys. So when a war party of "Injuns" showed up on the screen the kids in the theatre would leap to their feet and blaze away with imaginary Colt 45's. "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" and the only good Injun was a dead Injun. Maybe Tonto was the exception. He knew his place which was to be "faithful" and call the Lone Ranger "Kimo Sabe". That was being a good "Injun". We did allow for that bit of flexibility: the odd "good Injun" was OK as long as there weren't too many of 'em! The best "Injuns" were Chief Wild Eagle and his Loyal Side Kick, Crazy Cat |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2013 8:43:23 GMT 10
Of course, nothing beats a Spaghetti Western
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Post by jody on Feb 16, 2013 8:44:50 GMT 10
Spagetti westerns are what gave Clint Eastwood his start.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2013 11:56:40 GMT 10
They used to be so popular a couple of generations ago. In fact in the 1950s they were standard fare. It wasn't just down to John Wayne, although he was unquestionably king of the genre. But there was Gary Cooper, Robert Mitchum, Charles Bronson ( a later generation), Clint Eastwood and I seem to recall Jack Nicholson featured in the odd western movie early in his career.  |
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Post by jody on Feb 16, 2013 12:26:18 GMT 10
I remember Terrence Hill's amazing blue eyes.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2013 13:12:33 GMT 10
I remember Terrence Hill's amazing blue eyes.
They are B-grade movies, yet they are both hilariously funny in a slap-stick kind of way. |
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Post by jody on Feb 16, 2013 13:23:10 GMT 10
I have seen both and yes, they are funny movies.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 18:12:13 GMT 10
I've got both �They Call Me Trinity� and �Trinity Is Still My Name� on DVD.
They are B-grade movies, yet they are both hilariously funny in a slap-stick kind of way. And they're Israeli productions ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 19:57:40 GMT 10
And they're Israeli productions ;D
Israelis are too stupid to make an A-grade movie.
They're all as silly as Matty-boy! ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2013 7:21:59 GMT 10
And they're Israeli productions ;D
Israelis are too stupid to make an A-grade movie.
They're all as silly as Matty-boy! ;DYeah, most of them are in Hollywood anyway. |
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Post by garfield on Feb 19, 2013 7:57:12 GMT 10
When I lived in the Northern Territory I was living in a Western. Did you ever get into a gun fight? |
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Post by pim on Feb 21, 2013 10:42:26 GMT 10
Since I started this thread by comparing Rio Bravo and High Noon, I thought I really shouldn't rely on a distant and imperfect memory of High Noon so I went ahead and bought the DVD. Mind you, it didn't exactly break the bank. I picked it up for $5. And what a gem for five bucks! I've completely changed my mind about what I said in my OP which was as follows: They used to be so popular a couple of generations ago. In fact in the 1950s they were standard fare. It wasn't just down to John Wayne, although he was unquestionably king of the genre. But there was Gary Cooper, Robert Mitchum, Charles Bronson ( a later generation), Clint Eastwood and I seem to recall Jack Nicholson featured in the odd western movie early in his career. What I hadn't realised is that McCarthyist politics heavily affected the Western genre in the 1950s. Take High Noon with Gary Cooper. I've seen it but it was long ago. Gary Cooper plays the lone lawman who finds himself up against a powerful gang of outlaws. The local townsfolk are more than happy to put the Gary Cooper character into the firing line but when he seeks their support they all melt away leaving him to face the bad guys alone. Even his bride forsakes him. Who played the bride? Was it Deborah Kerr? I can't recall. Someone of that era in any case. Hence the song Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darlin'. In fact I think the song is the most memorable thing to come out of the movie. In fact the marshall's new bride in the move is played by Grace Kelly. She's a Quaker and a pacifist and the Gary Cooper character initially gives up his marshall's badge and hangs up his sixguns for her sake. I'm not going to criticise Rio Bravo here. It's a grand movie and I love it. As pure entertainment it beats High Noon hands down. But High Noon aims higher and goes deeper than Rio Bravo and in my view they are completely different movies. High Noon is above all a morality play, and even when you strip all the Cold War politics away it still works brilliantly as a morality play. It's stark and works very well in b & w. The townsfolk are emblematic of society as a whole. In fact the town is a universe unto itself and what the Gary Cooper character does is expose their hypocrisy and two-faced morality. The church scene in which the town's citizens convince themselves that it's the marshall that's the problem rather than the killers who are coming to town bent on revenge (they're a bit like the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse), and the sophistry and phony arguments that they employ to justify their refusal to support him, is probably the highlight of the movie. Add to that the political dimension in which the movie is seen as an allegory for the way Hollywood actors who refused to co-operate with the HUAC blacklists were destroyed and their reputations trashed, and it's no wonder the movie cleaned up on the Academy Awards. I've changed my mind about Rio Bravo being "better". It isn't. High Noon is still considered probably the greatest Western of them all and a classic. Even Ronald Reagan liked it. For Bill Clinton it was his favourite movie. And I found out something really magnificent about John Wayne in relation to High Noon. While it's true that the Duke loathed the movie and that Rio Bravo is supposed to be the great conservative response to High Noon, apparently John Wayne collected the Academy Award for Best Actor on behalf of Gary Cooper who was too ill to attend the awards ceremony. Now that was gracious of him. |
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Post by sonex on Feb 21, 2013 11:03:41 GMT 10
I don't particularly like Westerns, hate it when the horses fall over, but I did watch "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" a while back, it had a good storyline. James Stewart, John Wayne and Lee Marvin.
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Post by pim on Feb 21, 2013 11:57:58 GMT 10
Sonex High Noon is unlike any other Western you've ever seen or heard of. There is little violence, except for the shoot-out at the end. It isn't two-dimensional in the way that so many Westerns are. In fact it's morally ambiguous in the way that the Gary Cooper character is prevented from being too Christ-like by being shown to make a couple of ill-judged moral choices of his own. But there is a Christ-like quality to the town marshall in the way that the desertions by the townsfolk are presented to him as temptations in the way that Christ was tempted in the wilderness by the Devil. The movie itself is stark and austere, as befits its low-budget status. I've always thought that when low budget movies achieve greatness, there's a sort of creative genius in the cinematography choreography and High Noon demonstrates that. The music is understated - just variations on Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darlin' playing softly in the background (not the version you remember that used to be played as a pop song on the radio) with an Indian drum beating softly. The silences in the movie are wonderful. I love a movie that understands the value of silences. If I were managing director of the ABC I'd sack any commentator covering an important event who felt s/he needs to fill important silences in proceedings with inane prattle and to call it "commentary"! Visually there's little in the way of panoramic shots. Basically it's a close up of a clock ticking inexorably down to 12 noon as the tension builds up, lots of close-ups of Gary Cooper's face showing his inner turmoil as he walks the deserted streets of the town (the townsfolk are either in church or in the saloon) and the railway tracks leading out of town into the distance in a flat landscape to emphasise the tension embodied in the footage of the ticking clocks. The über bad guy is due to arrive on the noon train for his showdown with the marshall. It is, quite simply, a great movie. Not "great" in the way Julia Gillard abuses the adjective "great" (a "great" education. "great" jobs - ugh! That woman's use of language is so devoid of any poetry or euphony that her genius is in her ability to turn a silk purse into a sow's ear simply by talking about it!) but "great" in the sense that the movie - in my view at any rate - does achieve a type of universal greatness.
I don't think you have to be a "Western" buff to appreciate the movie. In fact John Wayne said he loathed it because as a Western he thought it was so "un-American"!! Analyse that if you can!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2013 14:48:56 GMT 10
Basically, there are two types of Westerns....
1. Those that have injuns in them.
2. Those that don't have injuns in them.
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